1.04 Legendaries are a slap in the face

[ooogz]

If some summon angels and demons etc to help u then no i dont see it just being sparkly graphics...
And no, i doubt drop rates will increase without MF gear or else they can get rid of the RMAH and AH. And obviously that wont happen.
Im excited to see what legendaries are coming

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[The Rockman]

Snip
1 - Legendary weapons need to have the highest damage in the game.
2 - Legendary armors need to have the highest stats in the game.
3 - Special effects and procs are either irrelevant or overpowered, they should not be the focus of the item
4 - Above all else, these items must be farmable.

Drop rates and self-sustainable farming are the real issue, not the sparkles on the items and side-effect procs.

Has Blizzard addressed this? Not yet, so let's wait and see. But I'm not holding my breath.

You seem to be focused on your own problems with them.

1 & 2: No one was really asking for them to be the best in game, just to be good enough to be a usable replacement instead of meh the rare I found 8 levels ago makes this look like a tooth pick. The Diablo way has always been that the best items from a numbers stand point are the so called 'godly rares'.
3: 90% of the complaints I seen about legendaries apart from there stats being to weak where all that the where like this "meh same old same old, where the special stuff" <- The special stuff they added makes them unique/special and as for this being irrelevant no it part of the essence of diablo, I mean look at the new buriza-do kyanon, that a great change IMO.
If they didnt use these mods they either be must haves due to being overpowered in DPS or STATS etc that other items are junk or they are junk like they are now. as for the power of these special mods its unknown as there's no real info on them apart from a chance to.
4. Yes the drop rate of these items needs tweaking as they should be a bit more common, but well you need to be careful though here, that you dont end up making them to common.

To others in thread. We seen only 13 of them so theres gonna be more good stuff, and they dont seem thematic are you drunk or blind the stuff seems very thematic to me.

[Karth]

OK, for clarity:

Unless legendaries become the go-to item for every slot, and they can be farmed on your own without resorting to the GAH-RMAH, then any other changes, be they procs or effects, will not make the community happy over the long term. I believe Blizzard is avoiding the issue with little tweaks that will not fix the issues. The issue, to repeat, is:

Legendaries must in general be better than all but the perfectly rolled rare. These legendaries must be farmable on one's own without needing to resort to the GAH-RMAH combo. Anything short of this D2 farming system will eventually turn more people away from D3 than it attracts.

Thanks, that makes a lot more sense.

I disagree very strongly with this position. Nothing will ever make the D3 community happy until the whiners actually quit. People who want every drop to be significant and to be good enough that they can sell it for a bunch on the auction house do not understand the economics of the game. This cannot happen; you will eventually reach a point where it is far, far easier to buy upgrades on the auction house than to farm them yourself because nobody can use all of the gear they themselves farm.

You make items easier to farm, the easier to farm items flood the auction house, making it more efficient to farm the auction house than the game, making it impossible to farm the game for upgrades because you have now increased your requirements for gear upgrades. The only two effects this has is to make more builds available for relatively poorer people due to gear availability and to make the game, overall, easier.

What is the point of introducing and then tweaking Legendaries if no one uses them because they are too hard to find and because a decent rare is better?

Nobody uses Legendary items right now because they're not good enough. Have you looked at the auction house? There are pages and pages of every legendary in existence on the market. I've found a couple dozen legendary items in spite of not playing with much mf and only two of them were good enough to bother using, but even then they weren't something I wanted to use, so I sold them. It looks like the only problem remaining for legendaries after 1.04 will be balancing the drop rates for single player types vs multiplayer/AH-using types, a feat I consider to be impossible; you piss off one group if you make the other happy. All the new legendaries appear to have the kind of unique powers that the currently useful legendaries have; they should all be viable for something or another.

[WhiteGiant]

What about the 850 dps one handed ilvl 60(!!!) weapon displayed? It seems to hint that legendary weapons will certainly be on par with high quality rares. That 1500 dps skorn also has almost 200% crit damage and a socket available for another 100% on top of being on par with the absolute best dps rares available presently.

You really think they're going to raise the bar so far that this becomes average? If so, what happens to the poor dual wield or weapon+shield builds?



Those 'gimmicky' proc effects, strange constant effects, and huge bonuses to particular skills or attributes could be central to whole builds, it seems to me. What exactly did you expect them to do? Not every legendary there has a proc effect. What kind of theme or creativity do you need?

to me that seems totally reasonable. ilvl 63 weapons can have up to
~1350 DPS
100 critdmg
959 LOH
up to 200 single attribute
up to 150 dual attribute
socket.

so if you dual wield 2x 1200 dps weapon with 100 crit and sockets you have 400% crit. and an inherent IAS bonus of 15%

the best of the best 2h weapons on the other hand can only have up to ~1600 dps and they can only spawn with exactly the same affixes as 1h weapons. which is a joke

currently the inherent damage advantage does barely account for the IAS bonus in most cases.

1h shield is also very very good still - the average shield has like 1200 Armor which is worth 40% of your HP in mitigation
average shields should have atleast ~20 blockchance ; which is (depending on your remaining mitigation worth 20% dmg reduction.
but it can go up to 29% blockchance. also Shields can have up to 10 crit , which is very very nifty for an "defensive" Item.

that being said i think it would be totally reasonable for Blizzard to

double singleattribute from 200 to 400
double dualattribute from 150 to 300
double critdmg from 100 to 200
double LOH from 1k to 2k

to me those seem like very reasonable changes ; If they decide to increase the raw damage of elemental dmg delta's and base dmg delta's i would probably increase those "secondary stats" not by 100%. but never the less a buff is overdue.

also another reason why 2h sucks generally speaking is the following ;

*sources and Mojos are really good - especailly with fast weapons.

*Most of the damage from all classes comes from skills with very little to no resource cost ( DH / Wiz / WD ) or even skills which do not cost resources at all ( Monk / Barb ).

- this is because the resources cost of many skills is off when it comes to efficiency and cost:damage-ratio
eg. Dart Splinters 180% dmg/10 mana VS Spirit Barrage 190% dmg +3x30% on secondary targets and no option to increase single target damage 108 mana cost.

- some skills cost enormous amounts of resources. but the damage they deal is laughable if you compare it with the damage you dealt just by accumulating the ressources required to cast said skill.
eg Wave of Light. with FOT Thunderclap i need to hit 13 times in order to cast it once. assuming iam hitting 1 maintarget and 2 secondary targets while doing so I'd deal 3270% dmg to all of them combined and 1885% to the main target.
If i cast Wave of Light explosive Light (largest AE) now i'd deal 285% dmg per target. so i would need to hit ~12 targets to get even with the effectiveness of what FOT Thunderclap does for free to justify using a slot for it. on the single-target damage front on the other hand there is no light at the end of the tunnel. 285% damage to singletargets is just not enough damage to warrant a skillslot, especially if you consider that you could cast FOT 2-3 times while the clunky animation is in progress.


so yeah generally speaking Resource spender skills need to be re balanced and 2h-weapons need a buff. and as far as i know both will be addressed ; i don't know how well they will do that ; but if they really pull it off currently "viable" builds could triple or more.

[Karth]

Well, first, I'm going to either have to 1)assume they get spenders working better or 2) argue based on builds that are already functional with 2h weapons without spenders being buffed.

Hasn't Blizzard already stated that they intend to buff the actual damage of 2h weapons? Skorn's base 1550 dps seems to indicate this; I doubt Blizzard is moronic enough to pick a near-perfect roll to post a picture of, though I suppose they could make a gaff like that. With 2h weapons receiving a significant damage boost, a strict doubling of other mods available on them seems to be out of line, nullifying the advantages 1h weapons have while retaining superior availability (you only need one incredibly rare 2h weapon, vs two incredibly rare 1h weapons to be competitive).

Mojos and sources are a similar matter; if they are, with significantly greater investment, a superior option, that seems fine to me; a 2h weapon fills the niche of being better for less money spent.

My main problem with the issue is the rarity/cost of 2h vs 1h weapon setups. If a two-handed weapon is directly equal in performance to a 1h+offhand or dual wield setup, you must make the individual items for 1h weapon setups cheaper in some way to account for the cost of having to obtain two of them. Perhaps this is accounted for in drop rates (I've never seen or heard of statistics on this), but if so it is untested as 2h weapons are currently inferior. I'll have to wait and see about it.

[WhiteGiant]

Well, first, I'm going to either have to 1)assume they get spenders working better or 2) argue based on builds that are already functional with 2h weapons without spenders being buffed.

Hasn't Blizzard already stated that they intend to buff the actual damage of 2h weapons? Skorn's base 1550 dps seems to indicate this; I doubt Blizzard is moronic enough to pick a near-perfect roll to post a picture of, though I suppose they could make a gaff like that. With 2h weapons receiving a significant damage boost, a strict doubling of other mods available on them seems to be out of line, nullifying the advantages 1h weapons have while retaining superior availability (you only need one incredibly rare 2h weapon, vs two incredibly rare 1h weapons to be competitive).

Mojos and sources are a similar matter; if they are, with significantly greater investment, a superior option, that seems fine to me; a 2h weapon fills the niche of being better for less money spent.

My main problem with the issue is the rarity/cost of 2h vs 1h weapon setups. If a two-handed weapon is directly equal in performance to a 1h+offhand or dual wield setup, you must make the individual items for 1h weapon setups cheaper in some way to account for the cost of having to obtain two of them. Perhaps this is accounted for in drop rates (I've never seen or heard of statistics on this), but if so it is untested as 2h weapons are currently inferior. I'll have to wait and see about it.

well i disagree ; I think the decision of your weapons should be based upon your play style and build and should not be dictated by the market. I simply disagree that dw should always be better than 2h because it is more expensive on the AH.

maybe 1h needs to be more common or 2h need to be "rarer" when it comes to drop quantity - but besides that i simply disagree with your sentiment. i also think that your points groundless - because we never had have sought after viable 2h Weapons. but once they'll have the stats they'll deserve they will also receive a price tag according to those stats.

[sacridoc]

A lot of people seem really happy with the new legendaries.

In general I'm a bit underwhelmed. To me it looks like what they've mostly done is taken the crap legendaries, added sparkly graphics and some gimmicky proc effect. Not *every* legendary item needs a proc effect. Most of the ones they showed still didn't have any sort of theme or creativity in the affixes outside the proc effect.

It's definitely an improvement, but most of it is cosmetic stuff, the procs that is.

The thing to understand about D3 is that it's never going to be the game people want it to be because the developers have a different philosophy than those who criticize it.

The game is built for a casual audience to keep them busy when WoW gets boring. It seems kind of ridiculous for people to expect a major direction shift in the game. Like they're going to redesign the core aspects of the game through patches... I really doubt that's going to happen.

There are some parts of D3 that have to be changed simply because the way they work currently is awful. Legendaries and co-op games are the best examples. These changes had to be made just to make the game mediocre.

Video games are like anything else now... the bigger the audience = the more compromised the creativity is. That's just how it goes. Blizzard is a bloated company near the top of the industry, and so they make games that are very bland and try to appeal to the widest audience... which leads to a less creative and exciting product.

[Karth]

I don't think we're really disagreeing about how 2h vs 1h weapons should be based on build choice and play style.

But if so, they should not also have a superiority in opportunity cost. My point isn't groundless; if 2h weapons are balanced to be every bit as strong as 1h weapon setups, they must also be as difficult to obtain as a 1h weapon combined with its compliment in off-hand/shield/additional 1h weapon. Otherwise 2h weapons are simply superior to 1h weapons and we're back where we started, with an imbalance.

[Steven Hazani]

Karth, while you're right you're also using facts and logic. I don't think you'll get very far. :/

[Karth]

Karth, while you're right you're also using facts and logic. I don't think you'll get very far. :/

The ironic bit is that logically, I know that what you're saying is the absolute truth. However, being as human as people who let their emotions get in the way of logic, emotionally I can never understand that my logic will not work with folks. So I keep trying.