The new circumcision thread! Circumcision of boys declared illegal in Germany!

[jmervyn]

That was banned some time ago. As in, it's illegal to cut or make any incisions on girl's genitals, regardless of whether tissue is removed or not.

Well, thank God for that. Is it true for France? It isn't universally true for the U.S., though thankfully it's not truly legal here either, because we can't risk offending Muslims - and the practice isn't even Muslim! IIRC they've used the same defence as the Indians who use peyote buds as ritual.

It seems to me you just contradicted yourself on the "Tubing" practice. Tonsillectomy is only done when constant infections occur. Neither of these cases are comparable to the medical uselessness of circumcision.

That's your professional opinion as a Doctor, then? How about ear piercings?

[BobCox2]

That's your professional opinion as a Doctor, then? How about ear piercings?

That can grow back, again this is Permanent Mutation of the sex organs.
We don't do it to any domestic animal when we fix them as infants even to protect from infection etc..

[jmervyn]

We don't do it to any domestic animal when we fix them as infants even to protect from infection etc..

Bob, first, I think you mean "mutilation", though perhaps when you say "mutation" you're speaking from the heart?

Spoiler

Secondly, what does permanency have to do with it? If anything, it is better, since having to have one's ears re-pierced causes greater risks, to say nothing of expense and annoyance.

Thirdly, we do indeed do far more cruel things to domestic animals. Look up "gelding"; "bobbing" of tails is a commonplace procedure as is "docking" ears. The reason this is done at infancy is that the sensory apparatus is nowhere near as developed, and therefore less painful than it would be if done later.

[Leopold Stotch]

<---- is sucker for animals. doesn't want to know...

*Holds Casey*

[krischan]

Thief.

This is definitely being discussed as an anti-Semitic ruling.

I haven't heard of any accusations of that kind. German courts don't make politics or pursue goals with their decisions, they interpret the law. If the court decision leads to the wrrong result, there's usually something wrong with the laws as they are, so the law has to be changed.

Effectively, it will leave to religious zealots not going to the doctor for a circumcision, but to somebody else in (exaggeration) a bacroom, with a Swiss army knife. which can certainly lead to worse consequences than bleedings every now and then if done by a doctor.

I'm of very mixed opinions about it; I approve of the practice as I do tonsillectomy or having the kid's ears "tubed", neither of which is substantively different from a medical point of view. This issue is touted as being a protection for children, but female genital mutilation is either already illegal in Germany... or already unopposed in Germany.

Removing the tonsils is almost always done for perticular, medical reasons. BTW, I heard that they are the body's training grounds for building up antibodies for infections. Doctors don't recommend removing them without a good reason. No serious doctor here wouls probably agree that it's OK pierce the ears of children, at least not for small children.

Circumcision of girls would probably lead to the children being taken away from the parents and a charge for grievous bodily harm for the doctor and the parents.

[jmervyn]

I haven't heard of any accusations of that kind.

I definitely have. Not just American j00z either.

which can certainly lead to worse consequences than bleedings every now and then if done by a doctor.

That's the claim of the FGM apologists in the U.S. It hasn't exactly borne out, as I had linked previously; the result isn't back-alley procedures but "medical" tourism to the closest country that will perform the procedure.

Doctors don't recommend removing them without a good reason.

See, in the past it was practically standard operating procedure, since the risk to an adult is far greater.

No serious doctor here wouls probably agree that it's OK pierce the ears of children, at least not for small children.

Interesting. Maybe I'm confusing there with Holland? How long ago was this put in effect?

Circumcision of girls would probably lead to the children being taken away from the parents and a charge for grievous bodily harm for the doctor and the parents.

Hasn't previously, there or here. I suspect the issue will come to a head in France; they have a massively larger Arab-centric population than you (which are Turkish or other more urbanized types, IIRC).

[BRKO]

Its always funny when uncircumcised people make rules for the circumcised.

Germans overdoing it a bit. Male circumcision is a simple surgery that has been with us for millenia, why the fuss now? The notorious german need to regulate things and make/have rules?

[krischan]

As I wrote, it isn't "the Germans", but a German court. Also, it isn't a regulation, but an application of pretty basic laws... in this case paragraphs of the constitution. Not some obscure paragraphs, but elemental ones: Freedom of religion versus the right of being bodily unharmed.

IMO it's not appropriate to use terms like "the notorious Germans" while you haven't understood what the issue is about. If people in Czech don't bother about applying paragraphs of the constitution on controversial matters, why do they have it at all?

There is a difference between a court decision and an expression of the will of the parliament and the people. As I wrote before, a court interpretes the law. If the consequences aren't to the liking of the German people or the parliament, then the law has to be changed.

It wasn't a particularly high court instance which made that decision, so the case will be handed over to the next higher ones until the constitutional court makes its final decision about which kind of consequences can arise in concordance with the laws as they are now.

[BRKO]

It is a very german-like answer krischan, both in form and content :-)

You make a very good point here comparing Germans and Czechs. Yes we do have some parts of our constitution that arent really fully applied or interpreted. Despite this the system more or less works. Germans are much more thorough in this aspect and their system works well too. I cant imagine a Czech court issuing similar ruling/verdict because it just seems absurd to have a court dealing with circumcision. It is understandable that there is a great tradition of Germans being afraid of harming anyone in any way but again, from Czech point of view this is law > common sense.

Keep us updated with the progress in higher court levels please .)

[jmervyn]

from Czech point of view this is law > common sense.

Be reassured, it's not just Czech. However, there's plenty of stupid to go around, so it's hard for the U.S. to get on too much of a high horse...

The main problem with this ruling isn't the innate anti-Semitism, but that Islam could challenge the ban on Arabic female genital mutilation in response. The severity and lasting damage is beyond comparison between the two, as the male operation simply prevents surplus unnecessary skin growth while the female operation is intended to destroy the nerves which cause sexual pleasure.