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  1. #11
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    Re: WW/crit build: Weapon Mater vs. Ruthless

    Quote Originally Posted by zakaluka View Post
    What it does though, having fast attack speed means you get less forgiveness for "traveling" with ww. If you get in a bad position you have to stop your channel and move.
    Yes, this is exactly what i'm experiencing. Sometimes i fill my bulb up very fast when WWing, other times i get stuck midwhirl as it were without fury. But, i don't seem to have that problem when i equip my Lidless Wall (which has 12% attack speed increase btw, and not 13% as i thought earlier). The 3% between that setup and dual wield can't account for that much of a difference, can it? Or am i just really getting unlucky when dual wielding, i don't know.

    Edit: Actually, i forgot the 5% increase in crit i have from the Lidless Wall. That must be it.



  2. #12
    IncGamers Member thewoodshed's Avatar
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    Re: WW/crit build: Weapon Master vs. Ruthless

    Quote Originally Posted by zakaluka View Post
    Yes, this is about right.

    Now, here's the thing: I did some math, and I found out that the amount of health you can get funneling is WAY< more impacted by your crit rate than your attack speed. I want badly to be able to carry both weapon master and ruthless. Maybe that just makes me ridiculous. By using a shield rather than dual wielding, I can actually theoretically get more health funnel from WW. And because I've got the shield that makes me think I can get away with ONE defense passive. I waffle between tough as nails, steel nerves, and superstition (superstition really helps against those "impossible" champ affixes like jail/mortar etc)

    A shield with high block can give you 10% crit, as well as up to ~50% DR overall (if looked at as a separate source of DR) - in certain situations. Because of the way Block can completely negate small damage components, and because shields have an insanely high base armor value. 2nd weapon gets you faster attack and LOTS of crit dmg (these things are good) but I was trying to think through the way to get the most from funnel and still maintain good enough defense.

    Here's how it works with 1H/shield ww crit:
    Looking at a tier 3 geared max barb: http://diablonut.incgamers.com/planner/72338
    With berserker rage and a killing spree rolling, with the 10% crit from axe mastery and the 5% from ruthless you now have: 82% crit (holy ****)
    I chose all haste affixes assuming a 30% nerf is incoming to attack speed across the board. This could be off by a mile, we will see. But this barb has 2.31 attack speed with those assumptions.
    If you can get 3 mobs in your whirlwind:
    13.9 hits/sec with whirlwind
    11.5% health/sec with funnel
    100k health pool? 11.5k health/sec. 827 health per hit. ww has a 13.3% coefficient - equivalent to 6.2k life on hit (o.o)
    ^^^ Very little RNG even, with this. At high crit you won't get a "bad streak", almost never.

    If you dual wield and get rid of ruthless, okay let's have a look at that:
    2.66 attack speed (again assuming the 30% nerf across the board for haste)
    character screen: 44.5% crit. Axe mastery/berserker rage/killing spree: 67.5% crit.
    If you get 3 mobs in your whirlwind:
    15.96 hits/sec with whirlwind
    10.8% health/sec with funnel
    100k health pool? 10.8k health/sec. 677 health per hit. equivalent to 5.1k life on hit.

    So as you see, it's pretty equivalent on the health return front, although it can be easier to manage fury with slower attack speed.
    Dual wielding is undoubtedly much higher DPS. 200% crit dmg + 15% AS vs 10% crit? The dual wielding wins by a mile.
    But from the standpoint of having to give up something offensive to gain some defense, I like putting on a shield in off-hand over dropping ruthless for steel nerves. For me, steel nerves is about a 10% EH gain, whereas a shield is worth much more than that in most situations.

    Sorry, this isn't really what you asked, but hopefully sharing my thought process and where I wound up will help you with yours. The LoH comparisons have no impact on your choice at all, it just shows exactly how OP a channeled %-based heal is, tied to a fury spender that does damage too.

    As a side note I would be a lot more concerned with life per second than life on hit with this build, health funnel heals for a LOT and the only time you won't be funneling is when you're out of fury. If you go with a rapid fury generator (I use cleave/reaping) you can just save your active defense CD for the moment when you're out of fury. I stomp and cleave twice -> back to fully fury, time to ww again! The time you're REALLY worried about healing is when you can't group up your enemies and that doesn't work anymore. Now you have to resort to running, and life per second is more meaningful. Not that LPS and LoH are exclusive, at all - you can get both.

    (ffs: my ww barb died at 57. HC. starting over again, not giving up on this idea!)
    No need to apologize. This is the kind of well thought out post I am looking for. lots of info here to peruse!




  3. #13
    IncGamers Member thewoodshed's Avatar
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    Re: WW/crit build: Weapon Master vs. Ruthless

    Quote Originally Posted by Muggs View Post
    I missed this in the 1st post but this is untrue especially in act1/2 and I do use it in act3 but that is because my gear is a bit low for the 4mans I run with. I run tough as nails, juggernaut and superstition when grouped in act2 and Tough as nails, weapon master, superstition in when solo act2. In act1 I run ruthless, weapon master and beserker rage for full on dps. If I have more than 2 people in act1 I will drop beserker rage for tough as nails. Once you get your EHP up high enough running full defensive passives is not necessary and actually a waste.
    Thanks.

    I'll keep that in mind. See I am A3 hell ATM, I suspect that I am not doing enough damage with the weapons I have to make effective uses of Blood Funnel. I dropped battle rage for revenge spam to keep fury for WW and healing up. My weapons are only around 550 DPS each. Doing 10K right now.




  4. #14
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    Re: WW/crit build: Weapon Master vs. Ruthless

    Quote Originally Posted by thewoodshed View Post
    Thanks.

    I'll keep that in mind. See I am A3 hell ATM, I suspect that I am not doing enough damage with the weapons I have to make effective uses of Blood Funnel. I dropped battle rage for revenge spam to keep fury for WW and healing up. My weapons are only around 550 DPS each. Doing 10K right now.
    Blood funnel is a percentage of the barbarian's life heal, not percentage of damage dealt. The dps you do won't matter as long as you can keep whirling. I only do ~14k with battle rage using a 590 dps axe with a perfect square emerald in it.



  5. #15
    IncGamers Member thewoodshed's Avatar
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    Re: WW/crit build: Weapon Master vs. Ruthless

    Quote Originally Posted by Karth View Post
    Blood funnel is a percentage of the barbarian's life heal, not percentage of damage dealt. The dps you do won't matter as long as you can keep whirling. I only do ~14k with battle rage using a 590 dps axe with a perfect square emerald in it.
    Yeah, I realize that. I had a D2 flashback for a sec

    I just entered Act 4 hell. Azmo was a breeze.




  6. #16
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    Re: WW/crit build: Weapon Mater vs. Ruthless

    So kinda confused for WW crit is dual wield better than axe/shield?

    what should off hand weapon mods be? [ right of screen wep slot?]
    on hand? [left? of screen item slot?]

    also someone posted a build using WW/ tornado rune and some other skills, thoughts?



  7. #17
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    Re: WW/crit build: Weapon Master vs. Ruthless

    Here's a little something that might help put some of the crit stuff in perspective. I'm very fond of 2-handed swords and decided to do a little digging on the relative effectiveness of the two masteries. Assuming the weapon options are about equal, then the balance between sword and axe/mace mastery effects looks like this:

    Crit chance (not including mastery) Crit damage balance point
    10% 176%
    20% 214%
    30% 273%
    40% 375%
    50% 600%
    60% 1500%


    The table shows the minimum crit damage bonus you need to have for the +10% crit chance from axe/mace mastery pay off more than the straight +15% damage bonus from sword mastery. As you can see, if you are getting a lot of crit chance already from items and other skills, you need massive crit bonus damage to make axe/mace mastery better than the sword damage bonus. Once you hit 66% crit chance from items and other skills, the +15% sword mastery damage boost is simply better than axe/mace mastery.

    Considering that other passive damage bonuses are out there (berserker rage, brawler) and it gives some food for thought in terms of how best to deliver damage.

    The other point of interest is that increasing both crit chance and crit damage at the same time (e.g. Ruthless) is often better than just increasing crit chance unless you already have a ton of crit damage from other sources.

    Caveats - math failure is a possibility here. Checked against some the damage calcs out there and everything matched so I'm feeling okay about that part. I'm not as certain about how the barbarian active attack skills will impact these results. Take it all with a grain of salt, I guess.




  8. #18
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    Re: WW/crit build: Weapon Master vs. Ruthless

    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard View Post
    The table shows the minimum crit damage bonus you need to have for the +10% crit chance from axe/mace mastery pay off more than the straight +15% damage bonus from sword mastery. As you can see, if you are getting a lot of crit chance already from items and other skills, you need massive crit bonus damage to make axe/mace mastery better than the sword damage bonus. Once you hit 66% crit chance from items and other skills, the +15% sword mastery damage boost is simply better than axe/mace mastery.
    This is very, VERY good info.

    But keep in mind you are in a specific context where crit rate affords you higher %-of-life healing. %-based heals are quite simply amazing and not to be overlooked, ever. When you can whirlwind 3 enemies and watch your health globe refill at 15% per second, you may decide the crit rate is more important than either haste or damage in your weapon mastery.

    Compare the DPS trade-off, but make sure you also consider the healing trade-off.

    Also, to the op: have you toyed with other self-healing options than revenge? Revenge is very strong, and most of us are used to how it works. But if you're stacking up crit you might consider a more offensive alternative.
    - Overpower's trigger interval is based off how many enemies you're hitting rather than how many are hitting you. It also adds a lot more DPS than revenge because it doesn't trigger an animation (can be used while using any other ability, no interruption). Doesn't limit mobility, big bonus points in my book.
    - Juggernaut is a decent opener and "escape" + heal for that moment when your fury globe runs out and you don't have a stomp or other defensive to burn while filling your fury globe.
    - Whirlwind
    - Rend, but its self heal has many problems that might even be impossible to overcome.

    Only troubles I have with juggernaut: I couldn't justify keeping leap and charge in the same build. You trade leap's defensive rune which makes it a strong opener with the 300% armor bonus; take charge with the healing rune to make it heal you when you need to escape. Pretty even trade but - leap can get you away from a waller, charge can't.

    When you look closely at why you feel the need to take revenge, it's probably tied to something like - "how am I going to cope with being out of fury, when the whirlwind heal depends so much on fury?" There are a few different answers to that question. (I quite simply don't like revenge just because EVERYONE uses it. Makes me want to find ways to cut it from my build.)


    Last edited by zakaluka; 20-06-2012 at 14:33.

  9. #19
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    Re: WW/crit build: Weapon Mater vs. Ruthless

    tried two weps and the fury just vanishes not worth dual wield IMO

    build on the nado?



  10. #20
    IncGamers Member thewoodshed's Avatar
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    Re: WW/crit build: Weapon Master vs. Ruthless

    Yeah, well I am in A4 hell, not geared yet- still have a few lvl 45 items and only arounf 500K in my gear. We'll see how things progress after A4.

    Quote Originally Posted by zakaluka View Post
    This is very, VERY good info.

    But keep in mind you are in a specific context where crit rate affords you higher %-of-life healing. %-based heals are quite simply amazing and not to be overlooked, ever. When you can whirlwind 3 enemies and watch your health globe refill at 15% per second, you may decide the crit rate is more important than either haste or damage in your weapon mastery.

    Compare the DPS trade-off, but make sure you also consider the healing trade-off.

    Also, to the op: have you toyed with other self-healing options than revenge? Revenge is very strong, and most of us are used to how it works. But if you're stacking up crit you might consider a more offensive alternative.
    - Overpower's trigger interval is based off how many enemies you're hitting rather than how many are hitting you. It also adds a lot more DPS than revenge because it doesn't trigger an animation (can be used while using any other ability, no interruption). Doesn't limit mobility, big bonus points in my book.
    - Juggernaut is a decent opener and "escape" + heal for that moment when your fury globe runs out and you don't have a stomp or other defensive to burn while filling your fury globe.
    - Whirlwind
    - Rend, but its self heal has many problems that might even be impossible to overcome.

    Only troubles I have with juggernaut: I couldn't justify keeping leap and charge in the same build. You trade leap's defensive rune which makes it a strong opener with the 300% armor bonus; take charge with the healing rune to make it heal you when you need to escape. Pretty even trade but - leap can get you away from a waller, charge can't.

    When you look closely at why you feel the need to take revenge, it's probably tied to something like - "how am I going to cope with being out of fury, when the whirlwind heal depends so much on fury?" There are a few different answers to that question. (I quite simply don't like revenge just because EVERYONE uses it. Makes me want to find ways to cut it from my build.)



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