Discussion: Hatred Generators

[JomDarbert]

Recently posted the following article (warning: some math ahead), but would love to get some feedback:

http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/com...rs-demystified

What are you folks finding to be most useful? Have you actually tried all of the abilities after hitting 60? For myself, the Nephalem Valor buff requires "one build to rule them all", so to speak. Since Nether Tentacles is great for single target and massive AOE damage, the only real hole in the build is for fighting a handful of mobs (3-5). Evasive Fire: Covering Fire seems to fill that niche perfectly.

Thoughts? Feedback?

[Matuse]

Evasive Fire uses up my discipline, which I cannot stand.

It also won't hit a target behind a target. This is bad news when dealing with shielded targets blocking a vulnerable one (or just some random target in front of a higher priority one).

For those reasons, I only use hungering arrow. The lighter damage really doesn't concern me as much as pure functionality. Pre-inferno, I'd use the stun-runed bola shot to keep bosses stunlocked, but it doesn't really work in Inferno, so I dropped it.

[mrparanoid]

First of all, kudos. I love it when people work hard to figure out how the game works and how to best utilize its mechanics.

I'm going to have to disagree with your analysis and conclusions, though.

1) Hungering Arrow - Scatter Shot. While this ability sounds great theoretically, I personally find that due to the angles that the scatters come out in, it's woefully ineffective. Unless the enemies are standing in a really tight group with one of them at the front (like in a doorway), it's unlikely to actually hit more than 1-2 targets.

2) Bola Shot. You compare Acid Strike's and Imminent Doom's aoe damage, but the comparison isn't entirely valid due to them being two very different kinds of aoe. For Imminent Doom (or all other runes), you hit one enemy, and the others have to be within 7 yards, which is REALLY close. For Acid Strike, one shot can hit an enemy at distance x, and then the others can hit enemies at other distances. I find that in most situations, due to the above and due to Acid Strike's scatter, it's much easier to hit multiple enemies with Acid Strike than other runes (except Volatile Explosions).

3) "The only place you’re really going to need to damage ONLY one monster is against a boss, mini-boss, or the last monster in an elite pack. In those situations, you really ought to be using one of the Demon Hunter’s far more powerful hatred-spenders (e.g. Nether Tentacles)."
Completely disagree. As a DH, you need single-target damage badly. You will often be in situations where the absolute most important thing is to bring down one enemy as quickly as you can, regardless of whether there are other enemies about. A common example is when fighting a group of regular enemies, and one of them gets closer to you than the rest, or maybe a fallen shaman decided to resurrect a fallen right next to you, or perhaps you're kiting an elite pack and while running back you go past one lone skull cleaver. These kinds of situations happen a lot (at least to me), and you don't always want to spend hatred on them, or maybe you're just not able (like if you spent all your hatred on the elite pack). Even when fighting an elite pack, you will often be in situations where, when kiting, the elites will be fairly scattered, with one of them riding your tail much harder than the others. You will want to focus your fire on him and bring him down as quick as you can, rather than do less damage for a chance to hit the other elites far behind him.

4) Like you said yourself, your math ignores other factors, such as bola's timer (without which, I believe Acid Strike would be the clear winner). For me, covering fire has one of the worst such factors: its chance to backflip. I find that it is too unpredictable, and far worse, that it spends my much-needed discipline. This is especially bad in close quarters fighting, such as most instances or the keep depths. You often have to kite enemies in small rooms, or maybe even back yourself into a corner so they only come at you from one side, and then smokescreen past them when they get too close. In those cases, covering fire wastes both time (I believe the backflip's casting animation postpones the next attack, right?) and discipline (which is far worse). It's decent enough in open spaces, but honestly I find that in closed ones it does more harm than good. Maybe it's a playstyle thing, and maybe it works for you, but I'm fairly certain many people would agree with me here.

tl;dr
Evasive Fire's low single-target damage and potential to get you killed and/or waste discipline means it's a no-go for me. Hungering Arrow still wins.

[Matuse]

While this ability sounds great theoretically, I personally find that due to the angles that the scatters come out in, it's woefully ineffective. Unless the enemies are standing in a really tight group with one of them at the front (like in a doorway), it's unlikely to actually hit more than 1-2 targets.

Strange, I find that the split shot goes all over the place. Each of the 3 breakout arrows are self-targeting, and will often take extremely acute angles to hit things. It may not be obvious at first, because they will shoot out a bit before changing course. You can see this in a non-split shot before it hits anything. I'll be aiming at a monster on the far left of the screen when someone pops up right next to me. Arrows halfway across the screen will suddenly turn around and smack whatever is close to me. The sub-shots do the same thing. If there's nothing directly behind the first monster, the middle arrow will reverse course and hit it a second time from the rear.

[mrparanoid]

That is strange. I'll admit I didn't use this rune much, but that's because that was the impression I got when I tried it. Then again, I was new to the class at the time, so maybe I was just doing it wrong. I'll try it some more and post an update.

[JomDarbert]

I do agree with the notion that my math, while technically "correct", doesn't tell the whole story. In practice, most math doesn't.

With regards to Evasive Fire using up discipline: perhaps this is a playstyle difference. I play strictly Hardcore, and proceed at a deathly slow pace. So, I think I see a backflip maybe once every few minutes, and then I'm turning away and running while smashing the Smoke Screen button. Evasive Fire doesn't work quite the same way as Hungering Arrow; learning the range required to activate the backflip helps quite a bit. To be frank - if you're backflipping a lot, more practice may help you realize more benefit from the ability.

With regards to Evasive Fire messing up positioning: Playstyle, I think. I'm NEVER surrouned, and clear every path around me before progressing forward. If a mob is behind me (other than random spawns in Act3, say) I did something horribly wrong. In Inferno/Hardcore, there aren't many other options.


I think the crux of most DH play is based on a discussion of when we're using which abilities. If I need to burn down a single target very quickly, I would never use Evasive Fire. Or Hungering Arrow. Or..hell, I wouldn't use ANY hatred generator. Nether Tentacles burns down mobs so much faster there's no comparison. So I suppose a lot of the debate around Evasive Fire really requires us to define WHEN we would use a hatred generator:

1. When we're completely out of hatred, OR
2. When we're not fighting mobs with large hitboxes (NT wins here), OR
3. When we're not fighting mobs that need to die fast (NT wins here)

So..what's left?

1. Small, weak mobs
2. Less-threatening mobs
3. Very fast mobs that have awkward pathing for NT

All of those seem like ideal situations for EF, to me.

[lucidlore]

I can't believe you ignored spray of teeth. In my opinion it's the best hungering arrow rune we have. It basically gains the equivalent of the archery bonus for xbows on your hungering arrow, with 2 extra benefits:

1) The extra 50% damage is spread in an aoe around the target.
2) It counts as an extra hit and not just as extra damage tacked on to your original hit. This means that the extra 50% bonus in itself can ALSO crit, which further builds on your crit chance and crit damage.

When i run inferno whimsy it absolutely destroys everything. All i have to do is hold down my attack and i see a flurry of yellow numbers. Its aoe dps potential is only dwarfed by nether tentacles.

Also, I'm almost positive that the split arrows of scatter are not homing. The original arrow that pierces will, but the extras will not.

[Karth]

Also, I'm almost positive that the split arrows of scatter are not homing. The original arrow that pierces will, but the extras will not.

I've seen them all home on targets if I remember correctly. Only one per pierce seems to be able to actually cause damage to any single target, though. I'll have to try spray of teeth out, dunno why I never thought to use it.

[megacoffee]

I'm a HC DH ready to proceed onto inferno (btw, I always play solo). I have been toying with the idea of a no-slow kiting build, using EF in combination with Tactical Advantage. This is because the toughest enemies in this game for us have the fast affix, and some of them are unkiteable with just frost arrow or entangling shot (or caltrops). But you can kite them with EF. Not easily, but it can be done. The Surge rune allows you to EF all day long because by the time the extra run speed has worn off, you will have regened the 2 disc back. Unfortunately, EF Surge by itself is woefully inadequate for dealing with champs or rares, and CF's cost adds up very quickly.

So this is where my idea falls apart. Either I find a great AoE hate spender to combine with EF Surge which is effective against fast mobs (ie. needs to be a high cost heavy hitter so I don't have to shoot it often), or I go with CF and Multishot Suppressive Fire with tons of +disc gear.

Thoughts?

[Sky Tan]

Now using devouring, might jsut try Scatter or Spray again.
Was using Justice as a Gen previously but got a cold bow after the IAS saga to combo with Cull so needed all the "weapon damage" skills.

Chakram left out cos it was physcial, so went back to Nether or might try out Frost again.