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  1. #21
    IncGamers Member Frostlion's Avatar
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    Re: The inferno wizard - common builds and gear choices

    Hey ysuol. I did a lot more testing on weapon speed today, and got some interesting results that I included in my above post. The short version is that you are right: slow weapons are better for AP-spender builds. Here is what various skills did with equal DPS slow and fast weapons, over the same period of time.

    magic missile
    slow weapon: 2 attacks for 200 damage each, 400 damage total
    fast weapon: 4 attacks for 100 damage each, 400 damage totalDoesn't matter much, but fast gives some more flexibility

    Disintegrate / Ray of Frost
    slow weapon: 100 damage per second, 10 AP spent per second
    fast weapon: 100 damage per second, 20 AP spent per secondSlow is a lot more effective, because it does the same DPS, for less AP

    Arcane Orb
    slow weapon: 2 attacks for 400 damage each. 800 damage total, 70 AP spent.
    fast weapon: 4 attacks for 200 damage each. 800 damage total, 140 AP spent.
    Slow is a lot more effective, because it does the same DPS, for less AP
    .

    Blizzard
    slow weapon: 10 tics for 100 damage each. 1000 damage total, 45 AP spent.
    fast weapon: 10 tics for 50 damage each. 500 damage total, 45 AP spent.
    Slow is absurdly more effective, it takes a bit longer to cast Blizzard, but once it is up, it does massively more damage

    Hydra
    slow weapon: ~25 attacks for 100 damage each, 2500 damage total, 15 AP spent.
    fast weapon: ~25 attacks for 100 damage each, 2500 damage total, 15 AP spent.


    As to your final remark: I only tested Teleport (Wormhole) with casting speed a few days ago, so I couldn't tell you if something was changed.
    The Hydra does exactly the same, the only difference is you can cast it slightly faster with fast weapon, making fast weapon a litle bit better.




  2. #22
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    Re: The inferno wizard - common builds and gear choices

    Quote Originally Posted by Frostlion View Post
    Hydra
    slow weapon: ~25 attacks for 100 damage each, 2500 damage total, 15 AP spent.
    fast weapon: ~25 attacks for 100 damage each, 2500 damage total, 15 AP spent.


    As to your final remark: I only tested Teleport (Wormhole) with casting speed a few days ago, so I couldn't tell you if something was changed.
    The Hydra does exactly the same, the only difference is you can cast it slightly faster with fast weapon, making fast weapon a litle bit better.
    This is completely at odds with the results I got yesterday. Re-tested just now to make sure I didn't screw something up. Same weapon damage, same intelligence, only difference between the two setups is one's a spear + 15 IAS ring, the other is a two handed mace with an empty ring slot. With pictures for reference:

    Spear + IAS ring



    Two handed mace with empty ring slot



    The faster weapon is consistently doing >115, while the slower weapon is consistently doing <90.

    Can also do the test using one weapon, with no ring slots. Once you put on two generic IAS rings, the damage goes up.




  3. #23
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    Re: The inferno wizard - common builds and gear choices

    Wow Frostlion, that's some really nice info. And I think it is very important since I think 1h/oh combos are overrated on AH right now (not that I personally mind, I use 2h, but for all wizards out there ).
    I was confused as was not 100% sure, did not think to really test with crap weapons. For a while I even thought of switching my 200k gold 1k dps 2 hander for about 2 millions worth of same damage 1h/oh. I'm very glad I reconsidered because apparently I am still incredibly lousy at gold farming.
    I see hydra might require some more data because of the above conflicting information, and if I ever were to use sig spells while not being very mobile fast weapon can also be an advantage. Also I am aware of the fact that some people prefer fast weapon and ias for easier kiting (less time to stop casting a spell). It just isn't worth the gold for me, I think it's a fraction of he monsters I could kill that way that I can't manage now.
    I have 2 viable setups now, one is blizz w/ hydra and other is orb w/ hydra. Even if let's say hydra does indeed gain damage from fast weapon and/or ias, it seems quite situational gain, if I can dodge a boss for 2 minutes I can probably dodge it 3 as well.

    My questions also came from the fact that often I see weapons that have IAS on them, thus inflating their dps, being sold for more than a slower weapon that actually has bigger damage on it. I was suspecting it being a bit fishy, I'm glad to see it confirmed and not jumping on the bandwagon.

    Cheers and thanks for the testing

    Edit: I think, a good rule of thumb would be, if someone does NOT use signature spells as main attack, AND can generally avoid being resource capped a lot (also key factor), it's worth to use the slowest weapon possible. Adding ias from other items does not diminish or increases the damage, but it's a convenience stat (less time standing in place while kiting). So far hydra could be an exception to that and if that is confirmed it still boils down to deciding how much Hydra damage actually weights in one's total damage output (I'd venture to say that not a lot while kiting).

    Sorry Deced it's not that I don't believe you we just seem to have conflicting info right now, that's why I am talking conditionally about Hydra.



  4. #24
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    Re: The inferno wizard - common builds and gear choices

    From my observation Hydra dont care about your actual weapon speed or damage range but uses your DPS at the time being cast. When you simply add IAS then your overall DPS increases and so the Hydra damage - but when switching your fast weapon with a slow one (or vica verse and as long your overall dps did not change) there is no difference in Hydra damage.



  5. #25
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    Re: The inferno wizard - common builds and gear choices

    Quote Originally Posted by Felinmorph View Post
    From my observation Hydra dont care about your actual weapon speed or damage range but uses your DPS at the time being cast. When you simply add IAS then your overall DPS increases and so the Hydra damage - but when switching your fast weapon with a slow one (or vica verse and as long your overall dps did not change) there is no difference in Hydra damage.
    Interesting, that would nicely explain the different results.




  6. #26
    IncGamers Member Frostlion's Avatar
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    Re: The inferno wizard - common builds and gear choices

    Just to make sure there are no misunderstandings:

    Hydra
    A 100DPS weapon with 0.9 speed will do the exact same Hydra damage as a 100DPS weapon with 1.4 speed, with the same amount of projectiles fired. This is true both for base Hydra and Venom Hydra. That is what I tested in my original setup. The only difference is that Hydra takes slightly longer to cast with a slower weapon.

    A 100DPS weapon with 2 15% IAS rings and 15% IAS gloves will indeed do a lot more Hydra damage than a 100DPS weapon with no rings and gloves on, while the number of projectiles fired remains the same - once again, true for both Hydra and Venom Hydra. That is because, as Felinmorph pointed out, in that case it is your DPS that increases, not your weapons damage per hit.

    I just redid my Nightmare Ghom Hydra test for some screenshots.
    100.8 DPS Great Maul, 0.9 speed 2-hander, no IAS gear: 253, 256, 278
    100.8 DPS Spatha, 1.4 speed 1-hander, no IAS gear: 255, 284, 273
    100.8 DPS Spathe, 1.4 speed 1 hander, 45% IAS gear: 386, 406, 411

    Blizzard
    A 100DPS weapon with 0.9 speed will do a lot more Blizzard damage than a 100DPS weapon with 1.4 speed, with the same amount of rain falling down. This is true both for base Blizzard and for Snowbound.
    On top of that, a 100DPS weapon with 2 15% IAS rings and 15% IAS gloves will do the exact same damage as when you don't have that IAS gear equipped.

    And the Ghom screenshots
    100.8 DPS Great Maul, 0.9 speed 2-hander, no IAS gear: 182, 182
    100.8 DPS Spatha, 1.4 speed 1-hander, no IAS gear: 117, 117
    100.8 DPS Spathe, 1.4 speed 1 hander, 45% IAS gear: 117, 117




  7. #27
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    Re: The inferno wizard - common builds and gear choices

    Thank you for this post - it was very helpful when determining what gear to buy off the AH so that I can survive in Act II Inferno without much trouble.

    While I haven't done side-by-side comparisons on specific spells using similar DPS weapons with differing attack speeds, I can say that have played through the Act I dungeons many times while farming for gold using a slower DPS weapon with better base damage versus a higher speed weapon with approximately the same DPS (no stat boosts on either weapon). The slower AS weapon with higher base damage resulted in faster run times and more gold/hour than the faster AS weapon with lower base damage. I experimented with Arcane Orb, Disintegrate and Blizzard and found that Disintegrate with a slow AS, high base damage weapon was the fastest way to go about it.

    Now that I have geared out better and am working my way through Act II, I am able to stay alive without issue and deal a reasonable amount of damage with a 1h, 1.2AS weapon and shield. The only time I seem to die is when I hit the enrage timer on elites, which depends upon the monster roll I get (fire chains or shielding for instance). My stats are as follows (with magic weapon [force weapon] and energy armor [prismatic armor] active):

    Int - 1141
    Vit - 716 (+9% life)
    Armor - 7912
    Damage - 16874.93
    Phys Resist - 1019
    All other resists - 722
    Life regen - 505
    Total life - 27616

    Skills - Active:

    Ray of Frost - Cold Blood
    Blizzard - Frozen Solid
    Diamond Skin - Crystal Shell
    Hydra - Venom
    Magic Weapon - Force Weapon
    Energy Armor - Prismatic Armor

    Skills - Passive:

    Cold Blooded
    Astral Presence
    Blur


    Last edited by drkwood; 08-06-2012 at 23:03.

  8. #28
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    Re: The inferno wizard - common builds and gear choices

    Quote Originally Posted by drkwood View Post
    Thank you for this post - it was very helpful when determining what gear to buy off the AH so that I can survive in Act II Inferno without much trouble.

    While I haven't done side-by-side comparisons on specific spells using similar DPS weapons with differing attack speeds, I can say that have played through the Act I dungeons many times while farming for gold using a slower DPS weapon with better base damage versus a higher speed weapon with approximately the same DPS (no stat boosts on either weapon). The slower AS weapon with higher base damage resulted in faster run times and more gold/hour than the faster AS weapon with lower base damage. I experimented with Arcane Orb, Disintegrate and Blizzard and found that Disintegrate with a slow AS, high base damage weapon was the fastest way to go about it.

    Now that I have geared out better and am working my way through Act II, I am able to stay alive without issue and deal a reasonable amount of damage with a 1h, 1.2AS weapon and shield. The only time I seem to die is when I hit the enrage timer on elites, which depends upon the monster roll I get (fire chains or shielding for instance). My stats are as follows (with magic weapon [force weapon] and energy armor [prismatic armor] active):

    Int - 1141
    Vit - 716 (+9% life)
    Armor - 7912
    Damage - 16874.93
    Phys Resist - 1019
    All other resists - 722
    Life regen - 505
    Total life - 27616

    Skills - Active:

    Ray of Frost - Cold Blood
    Blizzard - Frozen Solid
    Diamond Skin - Crystal Shell
    Hydra - Venom
    Magic Weapon - Force Weapon
    Energy Armor - Prismatic Armor

    Skills - Passive:

    Cold Blooded
    Astral Presence
    Blur
    softcore or hardcore?
    i am asking beacuse i am playing act2 inferno hardcore right now and i can't imagine surviving there without mirror images :/ (fast/teleport mobs etc)

    back on the topic tho, with current state of inferno that forces wiz to go kite mode slow weapons are definetely the way to go.



  9. #29
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    Re: The inferno wizard - common builds and gear choices

    My character is softcore. I was able to breeze through Act 2 with those stats and gear, but found that my DPS was insufficient for Act 3 since I couldn't kill anything but the weakest of elite packs before hitting the enrage timer. I am in the process of increasing my INT while trying to keep all resists at 600+. I'll post my stats again once I am able to complete Act 3.



  10. #30
    IncGamers Member GemofIndia's Avatar
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    Re: The inferno wizard - common builds and gear choices

    Quote Originally Posted by shoraz View Post
    softcore or hardcore?
    i am asking beacuse i am playing act2 inferno hardcore right now and i can't imagine surviving there without mirror images :/ (fast/teleport mobs etc)

    back on the topic tho, with current state of inferno that forces wiz to go kite mode slow weapons are definetely the way to go.
    If I may know you skills Please. As I want to know , where do you put teleport/mirror in.

    Frostlion@
    Very Nice post, Hope you keep updating it from time to time.
    BTW, putting in Hardcore will SHINE your post 100k times.



    Last edited by GemofIndia; 12-06-2012 at 15:02. Reason: adding

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