[Balance]Bonus to Intelligence, competition for Dexterityder=0>

[ancalagon]

If you're asking this question, perhaps you should make a more diligent attempt to determine the answer without overreacting. This isn't me being sarcastic here: you truly did not understand my point. No less than two of your replies actually INVERT my opinion. Please calm down and reread.

I actually disagree here. Any imbalance in the ITEM system will only get worse and worse as time goes on, as the number of "pre-patch" items grows as creates a more marked contrast with "post-patch" items. Skills could be hotfixed overnight and no long-term ill would come of it, just some temporary grumbling. Who cares if some skill/class balance issues might seem more pronounced? They are still lower priority than relatively trivial item balance issues.

You can come off as snide and unphased, cool and collected as you want, but I honestly think your post is the single most retarded and useless piece of 'information' on this subforum, not to mention a very unneccessary and untrue complaint about imbalanced game mechanics. From your other posts it also seems like no matter what other people say and how much they disprove you, you just want to huff and puff and get your way about like a little kid.

The ITEM system is not imbalanced, what they need to fix is certain skills and player stat scaling and the effects of those stats per point. The only item system they need to balance, or actually improve upon, are the uniques. Its not like you are going to stack up your inventory with 80 resist all items, because then you'll be leaving out your far more important stats out since how common is say for example, a ring with 70-80res all, 150 vit, 150 int, 15ias, socketed, and 8 crit chance for example? Chances are you are either stuck with high int high vit 20 res or medium to low int and vit with very high res (being very generic here, you can have one item with all stats as high but not 13 of them unless youre ready to spend 10s of millions igg in the AH (and you actually got to have them) and wait around for like a year for all said perfect items to appear.

You havent even answered my questions. I am still awaiting for a reply on:-

(a) Discourage int based characters? Wiz and WD you mean? INT is their main damage stat! And no its not overpowered at all, you will feel like you need as much res all as possible in hell or inferno, makes me think have you even reached past normal? Do you know how damage mitigation works and how much armor and resistances and dodge you *ideally* need in inferno just to *get by* and how much less of it you are stuck with on a build that finds a fine balance between damage and survivability, even with all items at 80+ res ?!?!?!

(b) Until then, as I say in my [COLOR=#e99c01]other thread[/COLOR], keep your Dex in the 1000 range and avoid Int-based classes unless you like to glass cannon. --> So yeah Im supposed to play only Monks and Dhs now and my barbs are supposed to fetch items with str and dex instead of str and vit as the 2 main affixes? GENIUS! WHAT A BALANCE FIX THAT IS!

(c) I think a good example solution would be to have every 4 or 5 points of Intelligence provide +1 to resist all, and then optionally adjust monster damage numbers carefully to reflect the new ratio --> LIKE WHAT, INCREASE THE DAMAGE OF MONSTERS IN HELL AND INFERNO!>??! LOL! And if before it was a 10:1 int:res ratio with less monster dmg and now its 5:1 with more monster dmg, did you ever stop to think that maybe youre back right where you started?

Your balancing consists of playing non-int based classes, as you say it, so limiting players to 3 groups of classes. What kind of fix is that, tell me?

I believe I've made my point and put up enough reasonable content for you to digest. Now I expect you to go back to the game and actually play past NORMAL mode, instead of theorycrafting something you havent actually tested ingame and then come back here and reply with some constructive criticism this time that actually makes sense and manages to downplay everything I said (which you wont I know but anyway) instead of your childish know it all snide replies.

[Dethklok]

didn't completely read my post ><

ah well, I expect it.

Replying to a small snip does not equal reading only the small snip. (And trusting your math is, well, trusting your math.)

Nevertheless, I feel you're right in that I didn't reply to a key part of your post. I didn't do this because text communication is a funny medium and I was sincerely worried I'd be taken as sarcastic or demeaning. I guess I can fix that by saying I sincerely intend neither; in fact, I have great respect for shrewd businessmen.

Right now I can get good deals because so few people understand the value of armor, dex and life regen. If you even out the values of the different stats, no more need to understand.

Which translates to: "The current system is imbalanced, but in my favor." I guess a certain reluctance to actually admit imbalance is natural; you'd prefer some euphemism. Furthermore, I frankly can't fault you. Given a subtly imbalanced game, the only proper way to play the game is to tip the imbalance to your favor and profit as a result; I implied this in the last paragraph of the original post in this thread, although your particular course of action wasn't specified.

[krischan]

You can come off as snide and unphased, cool and collected as you want, but I honestly think your post is the single most retarded and useless piece of 'information' on this subforum, not to mention a very unneccessary and untrue complaint about imbalanced game mechanics. From your other posts it also seems like no matter what other people say and how much they disprove you, you just want to huff and puff and get your way about like a little kid.

...

... and reply with some constructive criticism...

Advising others about being constructive while making personal attacks adds an involuntary, ironic note to your posting.

[Kijya]

Currently "+ all resistances" is a very overpowered item mod. Providing 700-800 virtual, non-damaging Intelligence off a single affix greatly discourages Int-based characters. I think a good example solution would be to have every 4 or 5 points of Intelligence provide +1 to resist all,

WHAT ON EARTH ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!?!? Discourage int based characters? Wiz and WD you mean? INT is their main damage stat! And no its not overpowered at all, you will feel like you need as much res all as possible in hell or inferno, makes me think have you even reached past normal?

He's mainly saying that the "all resistance" mod on items overshadows the bonus from INT by too much. And that this could discurage characters from getting as much INT as they would otherwise do if it gave better returns in the resistance department rather then only for damage in the case of wiz and wds.

If you're asking this question, perhaps you should make a more diligent attempt to determine the answer without overreacting. This isn't me being sarcastic here: you truly did not understand my point. No less than two of your replies actually INVERT my opinion. Please calm down and reread.

You can come off as snide and unphased, cool and collected as you want, but I honestly think your post is the single most retarded and useless piece of 'information' on this subforum, not to mention a very unneccessary and untrue complaint about imbalanced game mechanics. From your other posts it also seems like no matter what other people say and how much they disprove you, you just want to huff and puff and get your way about like a little kid.

In this case Dethklok is correct and as far as I can tell you've missunderstood him and replied as if his opinion was inverted to what it was. His advice on taking a moment to step back and reread his post was more then justified.

ancalagon, if you have no wish to read dethkloks posts you can add him to your "ignore list".

[ancalagon]

He's mainly saying that the "all resistance" mod on items overshadows the bonus from INT by too much. And that this could discurage characters from getting as much INT as they would otherwise do if it gave better returns in the resistance department rather then only for damage in the case of wiz and wds.



In this case Dethklok is correct and as far as I can tell you've missunderstood him and replied as if his opinion was inverted to what it was. His advice on taking a moment to step back and reread his post was more then justified.

ancalagon, if you have no wish to read dethkloks posts you can add him to your "ignore list".

He's mainly saying that the "all resistance" mod on items overshadows the bonus from INT by too much. And that this could discurage characters from getting as much INT as they would otherwise do if it gave better returns in the resistance department rather then only for damage in the case of wiz and wds. -->

This is not a case of imbalance, rather a case of very good balance. Why on earth would you want int over str or vit if youre a barb? Tell me why? Seriously answer me with logic and reason, dont ignore this sentence as if you missed it with your own eyes.

Only wds and wiz need to stack int for their damage, and other classes do not feel compelled to stack int for resistances only (ie a WASTED stat / affix on each item) because res all itself provides a hefty bonus, Thus they can focus on items that actually stack their main and secondary stats (dex/str or vit which is always secondary for all classes) and leaves space for 3-4 other useful affixes which do not include another stat bonus. Who would want to cripple this system and why? this is not the area of the game where imbalance is at, sorry to say.

Did you purposely ignore the part where he clearly stated to avoid int based classes as his method of getting around the so called fictitious imbalance of his? So that narrows down to 3 out of 5 classes I 'should' play the game with according to Einstein here. And to stack high dex on all classes which is riduculous. Or to increase the returns from int and also monster damage? What kind of fix is this? Could anyone answer me if any of you have actually gotten past hell mode? Cuz i have, and i can tell you a 1000 dodge 10000armor 1000res char will still not tank enough to save their lives against the constant barrage of elites, champions and their minions and hordes of swarmer type mobs the game throws at you in that difficulty. Its already very hard like that in a3/a4 hell mode I'll tell you that ... And he wants to cripple that by forcing characters to choose intelligence over their main damage or life increasing stat, and increase monster damages. Brilliant! Bravo!

I would appreciate it if at least one person here would retort with a reasonable explanation to the above, instead of avoiding challenging my valid points and just plain kissing butt, sorry to say it but thats clearly obviously whats going on here.

[krischan]

The problematic part of your posting doesn't refer to who is wrong and who is right, but to the way you are addressing people independently from that. If you need insults to stress your points, then they aren't welcome here, even if they add valuable information in their on-topic part. It's not that others have get used to your rudeness (like accusing Kijya of purposely ignoring something) if they want to benefit from your knowledge, but you will have to adapt to the standards of this forum in the first place.

[Kijya]

ancalagon, just as krischan says I'm not posting here to check on who is right and who is wrong in terms of game mechanics and balance. I'm here to guide the comments towards more civil waters, forcefully if necessary. You misunderstood Dethkloks post and when he pointed that out you replied rudely instead of reading his post again too see what he was trying to say, nothing more, nothing less.

[ancalagon]

ancalagon, just as krischan says I'm not posting here to check on who is right and who is wrong in terms of game mechanics and balance. I'm here to guide the comments towards more civil waters, forcefully if necessary. You misunderstood Dethkloks post and when he pointed that out you replied rudely instead of reading his post again too see what he was trying to say, nothing more, nothing less.

Not checking on who is right and is wrong? All lies, you are heavily biased:

He's mainly saying that the "all resistance" mod on items overshadows the bonus from INT by too much. And that this could discurage characters from getting as much INT as they would otherwise do if it gave better returns in the resistance department rather then only for damage in the case of wiz and wds.



In this case Dethklok is correct and as far as I can tell you've missunderstood him and replied as if his opinion was inverted to what it was. His advice on taking a moment to step back and reread his post was more then justified.

ancalagon, if you have no wish to read dethkloks posts you can add him to your "ignore list".

And again I didnt misunderstand anything he said, I understood what he said, found it to be rather stupid and offered my counterarguments as to why in all of my posts. Whats wrong with calling out someone when they say something dumb? I'm not using any foul language. Y'all seriously toucy in these forums. Everyone prefers to use my so called 'rudeness' as an excuse to bypass answering the challenging arguments I put up. Don't deny it.

I will sum up:


Why would you want int over str or vit if youre a barb? It doesnt
increase your dmg at all, you are supposed to be stacking your main stats str and vit, not wasting
int points, so thats where high res all and low res per int pt comes in

Only wds and wiz need to stack int for their damage, and other
classes do not feel compelled to stack int for resistances only
(ie a WASTED stat / affix on each item) because res all itself
provides a hefty bonus, Thus they can focus on items that
actually stack their main and secondary stats (dex/str or vit
which is always secondary for all classes) and leaves space
for 3-4 other useful affixes which do not include another
stat bonus. Who would want to cripple this system and why?
this is not the area of the game where imbalance is at,
sorry to say.

Your method of getting around the so called fictitious imbalance of
yours is to avoid int based classes? You're not fixing anything,
as you put it yourself you would be doing this:
''the only proper way to play the game is to tip the imbalance to your favor and profit as a result''
(I assume you only play DHs and monks)

So that narrows down to 3 out of 5 classes I 'should' play the game
with according to Einstein here. And to stack high dex on all
classes which is riduculous. Or to increase the returns from int
and also monster damage? What kind of fix is this? Could anyone
answer me if any of you have actually gotten past hell mode? Cuz
i have, and i can tell you a 1000 dodge 10000armor 1000res char
will still not tank enough to save their lives against the
constant barrage of elites, champions and their minions and
hordes of swarmer type mobs the game throws at you in that
difficulty. Its already very hard like that in a3/a4 hell mode
I'll tell you that ... And he wants to cripple that by forcing
characters to choose intelligence over their main damage or
life increasing stat, and increase monster damages. Brilliant! Bravo!

Have you even reached past normal? Do you know how damage mitigation
works and how much armor and resistances and dodge you *ideally*
need in inferno just to *get by* and how much less of it you are
stuck with on a build that finds a fine balance between damage
and survivability, even with all items at 80+ res ?!?!?!

I think a good example solution would be to have every 4 or 5
points of Intelligence provide +1 to resist all, and then optionally
adjust monster damage numbers carefully to reflect the new ratio
--> If before it was a 10:1 int:res ratio with less monster dmg
and now its 5:1 with more monster dmg, did you ever stop to think
that maybe youre back right where you started?

Sticking to a 1000 dex on each character is also ridiculous for WDs
Wizards and Barbs, because the difference between 200 dex (the average for these classes
who dont use dex as their dmg multiplier) and 1000 dex is only 30 - 12.5 = 17.5% dodge

Taking average damage of a monster in inferno to be 50k,

lets take a build with 30% dodge and 200 res all (on average each res), 3500 armor (seems to be average numbers from a lot
of builds I've seen who dont focus on all items with good dr bonuses)

Excluding all other Damage mitigators like Blur, Superstition, Relentless, Class bonuses (only for barb in this case):

200 res all and 3500 armor is a final 70% dr

vs a build with 12.5% dodge and 500+ res all, 9000 armor (every single piece of item with +armor and res all where possible)

which is 12.5% dodge and a final 90%+ reduction

Over the course of 10 hits we have:

50k x 10 = 500k x 0.3 x 0.7 = 105,000 damage taken

50k x 10 = 500k x 0.1 x 0.875 = 43,750 damage taken (less than half damage taken over just 10 hits which is absolutely nothing
ingame vs elite mobs)

And that is not even including all the other multiplicative damage reducing bonuses all classes get which can reduce damage up to a solid 94%+, whilst only the monk and barbs zerk provide xve dodge bonuses afaik

And you want somebody .. hell ANYBODY sensible ... to stack dex up to 1000 as a priority over vit or res all or +armor, or life regen life on hit cc reduction ias crit dmg crit chance? When you need all your items to stack up massive dex and ignore far more important and useful affixes for a build that will tank less than half the amount? Madness... nonsensical ... flawed ...

[krischan]

And again I didnt misunderstand anything he said, I understood what he said, found it to be rather stupid and offered my counterarguments as to why in all of my posts. Whats wrong with calling out someone when they say something dumb? I'm not using any foul language. Y'all seriously toucy in these forums. Everyone prefers to use my so called 'rudeness' as an excuse to bypass answering the challenging arguments I put up. Don't deny it.

Please re-read what I have quoted in my first reply:

You can come off as snide and unphased, cool and collected as you want, but I honestly think your post is the single most retarded and useless piece of 'information' on this subforum, not to mention a very unneccessary and untrue complaint about imbalanced game mechanics. From your other posts it also seems like no matter what other people say and how much they disprove you, you just want to huff and puff and get your way about like a little kid.

That was rude.

It doesn't depend on your idea of what's rude, but on ours. We will not change. You will have to. If people here are too touchy to your taste, then better look for a place where people get along with the way you are addressing them. These forums aren't such a place.

With that being said, the issue is finished. Please stop making any further public comments on moderator decisions

[Dethklok]

You can come off as snide and unphased, cool and collected as you want, but I honestly think your post is the single most retarded and useless piece of 'information' on this subforum, not to mention a very unneccessary and untrue complaint about imbalanced game mechanics. From your other posts it also seems like no matter what other people say and how much they disprove you, you just want to huff and puff and get your way about like a little kid.

Right back at you.

The ITEM system is not imbalanced, what they need to fix is certain skills and player stat scaling and the effects of those stats per point. The only item system they need to balance, or actually improve upon, are the uniques.

Fixing Uniques isn't so much a game balance issue as a "this doesn't feel like Diablo and the fans are getting upset" issue. I'm not trying to say things like that aren't important, and in the case of some uniques there really isn't ANYTHING keeping them from being a good, randomly spawned rare. On the other hand, uniques like Stormshield and String of Ears are pretty good examples of what I think D3 uniques should be.

Also, they are Legendaries, not Uniques. I can deduce that you are a former D2 player who is a little upset by the changes in the skill system.

Its not like you are going to stack up your inventory with 80 resist all items,

I'd like to say "this is what people are doing right now." However, technically they aren't, because 80 isn't available on everything and very few items get that perfect +80 roll. However, stacking up 65+ res all items? Yes. This is exactly what Inferno characters do.

because then you'll be leaving out your far more important stats

Off the top of my head, the only more important stat is life per hit; even that is arguable (there is also an argument for vit, although I don't subscribe to it). Res all easily trumps Str on barbarians, Dex on monk/DH, and Int on Wiz/WD. You are underestimating the defensive value of this mod.

how common is say for example, a ring with 70-80res all, 150 vit, 150 int, 15ias, socketed, and 8 crit chance for example?

Very low. Assuming the affixes you list are possible, it's probably about as likely as finding a Jah rune, then an Ith rune, then a Ber rune, then a 3-socket archon plate in Diablo 2. In other words, despite the extremely low probabilities involved, still relevant.

You also slipped that you play either Wiz or WD. Just sayin'.

(a) Discourage int based characters? Wiz and WD you mean? INT is their main damage stat! And no its not overpowered at all, you will feel like you need as much res all as possible in hell or inferno, makes me think have you even reached past normal? Do you know how damage mitigation works and how much armor and resistances and dodge you *ideally* need in inferno just to *get by* and how much less of it you are stuck with on a build that finds a fine balance between damage and survivability, even with all items at 80+ res ?!?!?!

(b) Until then, as I say in my [COLOR=#e99c01]other thread[/COLOR], keep your Dex in the 1000 range and avoid Int-based classes unless you like to glass cannon. --> So yeah Im supposed to play only Monks and Dhs now and my barbs are supposed to fetch items with str and dex instead of str and vit as the 2 main affixes? GENIUS! WHAT A BALANCE FIX THAT IS!

(c) I think a good example solution would be to have every 4 or 5 points of Intelligence provide +1 to resist all, and then optionally adjust monster damage numbers carefully to reflect the new ratio --> LIKE WHAT, INCREASE THE DAMAGE OF MONSTERS IN HELL AND INFERNO!>??! LOL! And if before it was a 10:1 int:res ratio with less monster dmg and now its 5:1 with more monster dmg, did you ever stop to think that maybe youre back right where you started?

a) You are not responding to my original point at all. To clarify, it is not this: "Wiz and WD are discouraged from getting +Int items." Obviously they are; it amplifies their damage. My point was/is: "Because +Int items compare so poorly to +res all items, players are statistically dis-incentivized from playing Wiz or WD in the first place."

b) You are not responding to my original point at all. To clarify, it is not this: "Incentivizing everyone to get dexterity bonuses, instead of other available affixes, is balanced." Obviously it's not. My point was/is: "Due to eventual diminishing returns in armor and resistances, combined with no other method of improving your dodge rate, at a certain point everyone is statistically incentivized to get dexterity bonuses over other available affixes." I have a lot of data math supporting this point in my other thread.

c) You are putting words in my mouth. To clarify, I did not say: "We need to increase the damage of Inferno difficulty's monsters." What I meant to say was that improving the Int-to-resist ratio may make it possible to pump Int as too strong of a damage mitigation method at lower difficulties, particularly Nightmare, and that adjustments might need to be made.

Your balancing consists of playing non-int bahased classes, as you say it, so limiting players to 3 groups of classes. What kind of fix is that, tell me?

My highest-level character is still my witch doctor. Hell was brutally difficult, and Act 1 Inferno was so hard for me that, met with countless deaths, I decided to bunker down and theorycraft to determine what gear mistakes I was making. Analyzing the data led me to the conclusion that Int-based is underpowered and Dex-based is overpowered. I also made a hardcore barbarian, who is now dead. I am currently leveling a monk.

I believe I've made my point and put up enough reasonable content for you to digest. Now I expect you to go back to the game and actually play past NORMAL mode, instead of theorycrafting something you havent actually tested ingame and then come back here and reply with some constructive criticism this time that actually makes sense and manages to downplay everything I said (which you wont I know but anyway) instead of your childish know it all snide replies.

For the guy keeping track of rudeness: I actually consider this part ruder than the intro.

Although I think it was more luck than skill, anc makes his only valid, nonobvious point here. I have not playtested most of the theorycrafting here. As stated above, I played WD to Inferno, cried at extreme difficulty, bunkered down with some number-crunching, reached conclusions, and then started to rebuild. Instead of waiting for results, I immediately posted my findings, as they were pretty much pure math-based, with formulas derived from trusted sources. I'm not rushing my monk and I've had less time for Diablo 3 last few days, so he's not anywhere near Inferno yet. In good faith, if I find any evidence through playing that disproves my theorycrafting, I'll post it.

Ancalagon, if you wish to reply to this post, do not expect any reply from me. You may quote me if you like, so that you could discuss these points with the other forum members; however, I will not respond to any further posts you make, until and unless you do something to convince me you are not the troll you appear to be.