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  1. #1
    IncGamers Member Dethklok's Avatar
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    [Balance]Bonus to Intelligence, competition for Dexterity

    I'm not trying to be like these ragers, but I think there are some serious game balance issues that Blizzard will hopefully address. I expect that as real-life players become more aware of practical theorycrafting these problems will become more apparent.

    These balance issues concern classes indirectly, but primarily they are item mod imbalances. The only real mods we look at here are armor, dodge, and resistances, because those are the ones tied to the key attributes, which are in turn tied to classes, leading to an indirect class imbalance. The reasons are below, but right now its: Dex overpowered, Int underpowered, Str in the middle.

    1a) Currently "+ all resistances" is a very overpowered item mod. Providing 700-800 virtual, non-damaging Intelligence off a single affix greatly discourages Int-based characters. I think a good example solution would be to have every 4 or 5 points of Intelligence provide +1 to resist all, and then optionally adjust monster damage numbers carefully to reflect the new ratio (retroactively editing existing items would cause an uproar). This would turn that 70-80 res all item into 280-400 virtual intelligence item, which is closer to the power of the +Armor affix (virtual Strength) against actual Strength, a ratio I believe is well designed. Additionally, in the same way that Armor is available without getting affixes, it might make sense for some gear to have resistance modifiers by default, even without affixes; to prevent abuse and/or uproar, I'd imagine that we'd want to avoid an actual "all resistances" mod here and instead split things up by element.
    1b) The maximum affix for a specific resistance (say, resistance to fire) should be MUCH higher than the maximum to resist all. Right now that isn't that case at all. The sub-resistance affixes deserve a buff.
    2) Currently nothing competes with Dexterity affixes in terms of offering a dodge bonus. Since the other two mods have "virtual" sources that can be pursued by characters who do not want that stat for DPS purposes, this represents a monopoly on best stat and oversimplifies gear choices. I believe that a +dodge chance affix should be made available. While it's important to make it better than Dexterity from a pure defense standpoint (this means even Monks and Demon hunters might consider it, although value it much less highly), it's also important to not have it obsolete Dexterity (as res all does to Intelligence). Again, the +Armor affix provides a good example, so we'd want items to max out at +2% or +3%, depending on item type. We'd want to work in that Dexterity has diminishing returns when stacked with this, so, for example, a character with 10% dodge from gear and 100 Dexterity would apply all 100 points of that dexterity at the 10-20% rate of .025% per point (ending at 12.5% dodge), not the .1% rate (ending at 20% dodge).

    Until then, as I say in my other thread, keep your Dex in the 1000 range and avoid Int-based classes unless you like to glass cannon.



  2. #2
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    Re: [Balance]Bonus to Intelligence, competition for Dexterity

    WHAT ON EARTH ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!?!? Discourage int based characters? Wiz and WD you mean? INT is their main damage stat! And no its not overpowered at all, you will feel like you need as much res all as possible in hell or inferno, makes me think have you even reached past normal? Do you know how damage mitigation works and how much armor and resistances and dodge you *ideally* need in inferno just to *get by* and how much less of it you are stuck with on a build that finds a fine balance between damage and survivability, even with all items at 80+ res ?!?!?!

    Until then, as I say in my other thread, keep your Dex in the 1000 range and avoid Int-based classes unless you like to glass cannon. --> So yeah Im supposed to play only Monks and Dhs now and my barbs are supposed to fetch items with str and dex instead of str and vit as the 2 main affixes? GENIUS! WHAT A BALANCE FIX THAT IS!

    I think a good example solution would be to have every 4 or 5 points of Intelligence provide +1 to resist all, and then optionally adjust monster damage numbers carefully to reflect the new ratio --> LIKE WHAT, INCREASE THE DAMAGE OF MONSTERS IN HELL AND INFERNO!>??! LOL!

    There are far more balance related issues that need to be fixed ASAP and this is not one of them!



  3. #3
    IncGamers Member Dethklok's Avatar
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    Re: [Balance]Bonus to Intelligence, competition for Dexterity

    Quote Originally Posted by ancalagon View Post
    WHAT ON EARTH ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!!!111
    If you're asking this question, perhaps you should make a more diligent attempt to determine the answer without overreacting. This isn't me being sarcastic here: you truly did not understand my point. No less than two of your replies actually INVERT my opinion. Please calm down and reread.
    Quote Originally Posted by ancalagon View Post
    There are far more balance related issues that need to be fixed ASAP and this is not one of them!
    I actually disagree here. Any imbalance in the ITEM system will only get worse and worse as time goes on, as the number of "pre-patch" items grows as creates a more marked contrast with "post-patch" items. Skills could be hotfixed overnight and no long-term ill would come of it, just some temporary grumbling. Who cares if some skill/class balance issues might seem more pronounced? They are still lower priority than relatively trivial item balance issues.



  4. #4
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    Re: [Balance]Bonus to Intelligence, competition for Dexterity

    You're fundamentally right about these stat imbalances. Just a few things:
    1) Looking at resistance in terms of Int equivalents isn't terrible productive; by and large resistance and Vit are both far better than secondary stats for all characters, and that's probably intentional. The issue is balance between survivability stats.
    --Resist all is too strong compared to Vit (Vit should always give more EHP than mitigation, to counterbalance its lack of synergy with healing; currently it does not).
    --Resist all is too strong compared to armor (at similar ilvl, if you get X resist, you do not get 10X bonus armor).
    --Resist all is too strong compared to individual resists (there are 6 elements and individual resists are nowhere near 6x as strong as resist all--closer to 2x).


    Resist all simply dominates all other survivability stats.




    2) Dodge bonuses in this game stack multiplicatively, so there's no issue of increasing returns as you stack dodge higher and higher. x% dodge on an item will cause to get hit x% less often regardless of your current dodge.



  5. #5
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    Re: [Balance]Bonus to Intelligence, competition for Dexterity

    So my opinion is clear, I don't particularly care that some stats are stronger than others. You still want *all* defensive stats on your item, and that simply won't be available. An item with armor and dex will be stronger for most players than an item with only +all resist. Good enough in my book - I don't think the stats need to be balanced, as long as they're all on the same order of magnitude. Only one that needs a buff are individual resists, but that's hard to balance against monk skills. It's hard to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by ancalagon View Post
    LOL!
    Could have summed up the whole message of his post with this one phrase. Great way to ensure that nobody at all will listen to your opinion. Please, the official forums are over at www.diablo3.com - seems you've gotten lost.

    Well, now since that's dealt with...

    Quote Originally Posted by HamletEJ View Post
    --Resist all is too strong compared to Vit (Vit should always give more EHP than mitigation, to counterbalance its lack of synergy with healing; currently it does not).
    Here is a common misconception though. Vit will give you several times more EHP per budget than resist will. This is right and necessary, though, because mitigation strengthens regen while a bigger health pool weakens it. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that vita is worth less EHP than resist - make sure you're adjusting 35 life/vita for all sources of mitigation.


    Last edited by zakaluka; 31-05-2012 at 23:22.

  6. #6
    IncGamers Member Dethklok's Avatar
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    Re: [Balance]Bonus to Intelligence, competition for Dexterity

    One thing I forgot to mention in terms of patch changes: More skill detail is necessary. I'm not even talking truly esoteric stuff, just things like your attack rate with the skill and the "life per hit" ratio for that skill would be great. I think it would be cool to take the Details box from the Inventory screen and put it in the skill box so that players can access that information without having information overload.
    Quote Originally Posted by zakaluka View Post
    An item with armor and dex will be stronger for most players than an item with only +all resist.
    From a pure damage mitigation standpoint, not at all. I showed on the spreadsheet at my other thread that +360 armor is a better damage-mitigation mod than 133 Dex/x. A +70 res all item equal to TWO +350 armor mods. That means it can trade with the armor mod AND still be better than the Dex/x mod. We're not even considering the +80 res all items here.

    Yes, it's that good.
    Quote Originally Posted by zakaluka View Post
    Here is a common misconception though. Vit will give you several times more EHP per budget than resist will. This is right and necessary, though, because mitigation strengthens regen while a bigger health pool weakens it. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that vita is worth less EHP than resist - make sure you're adjusting 35 life/vita for all sources of mitigation.
    It's common because there are still plenty of "theorycrafting" resources out there listing the life:vita ratio as 10:1.



  7. #7
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    Re: [Balance]Bonus to Intelligence, competition for Dexterity

    I wasn't thinking about the item budget when I posted that, so yes, resist all and Vit are closer in practical terms (even then, Vit is only significantly far ahead if you completely ignore healing). But to make sure we're on the same page, resist is still significantly greater EHP than Vit, point-for-point, given reasonable assumptions.

    For background, this is all based on the theorycraft I did while writing this article, and you can see my computation in the attached spreadsheet:
    http://iam.yellingontheinternet.com/...in-diablo-iii/



  8. #8
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    Re: [Balance]Bonus to Intelligence, competition for Dexterity

    Quote Originally Posted by Dethklok View Post
    From a pure damage mitigation standpoint, not at all. I showed on the spreadsheet at my other thread that +360 armor is a better damage-mitigation mod than 133 Dex/x.
    I think we're just looking at different contexts.

    In the context of item level 61 gear with good affixes, against level 62 mobs, and having that dex affix contribute to reaching the 1k dex breakpoint, an armor affix + a dex affix pretty much equals a resist affix.
    Here is my math: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...1E&pli=1#gid=4
    dex + armor: 4.7% EHP (102.3% * 102.3% - 100%)
    all resist: 4.7% EHP
    Look on sheet 4.

    sure, it falls behind after the breakpoint, also about half a point behind for any non-int class. but again only by about half a point.
    I don't think all resist is _quite_ as far ahead as you do.
    Yes, it's always "most desired". But the most desired item is still: primary stat, resist, armor, dex, life regen, (next whatever dps stats are available in-slot). That won't change by evening out the values. In fact, I see this as an opportunity to get good deals, because how many people understand the value of armor+dex?

    If you even them out all you do is take away any benefit we gain from understanding these things. If all the defensive stats are on par, there's no more understanding. Right now I can get good deals because so few people understand the value of armor, dex and life regen. If you even out the values of the different stats, no more need to understand.

    I don't particularly dislike your idea, i'm just OCD about math. Sorry. I often come across as a bit too argumentative.



  9. #9
    IncGamers Member Dethklok's Avatar
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    Re: [Balance]Bonus to Intelligence, competition for Dexterity

    Thanks for correcting my math... I overestimated. Slightly.
    Quote Originally Posted by zakaluka View Post
    I don't think all resist is _quite_ as far ahead as you do.
    You just proved a single perfect mod is (exactly!) equal to two separate perfect mods. Is that not far enough ahead for you?

    If you ask me, item mods are all fair game until something in the top 5 or so mods can two-for-one two of the other mods in the top 5. That's the point where I get worried.



  10. #10
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    Re: [Balance]Bonus to Intelligence, competition for Dexterity

    didn't completely read my post ><

    ah well, I expect it.



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