spike trap under powered?

[Matuse]

And if not using Ball Lighting, it would be Frost Arrow. I've also had good success with the fear skull. 40% means it goes off a LOT.

Elemental Arrow in general just leaves all of the hatred spender alternatives in the dust. Twin Chakram is death incarnate up until about A3 Hell, but then it gets seriously eclipsed by the various incarnations of Elemental Arrow.

[imthedan]

So how do you make traps more viable? They've said they would rather buff skills than nerf others, so what would you do?

Lower the cost? Increase the damage? Increase the radius?

[DaemonX]

So how do you make traps more viable? They've said they would rather buff skills than nerf others, so what would you do?

Lower the cost? Increase the damage? Increase the radius?

They're already very viable. Caltrops in mandatory in my opinion, certainly for hardcore, and Spike Trap is the second most powerful offensive skill in the DH arsenal only after NT.

The only problem is just that both these skills are locked into their one viable rune that actually makes them usable - ie Tortuous Ground and Scatter. Both these are so far and away better than the other runes, but more than this - both of them make their respective traps actually do something useful in all situations, whereas the other runes are either useless or highly situational. And remember, NV stacks mean situational skills are also useless for anything but staying alive in HC - you need an all-round kill build.

Without scatter, you are limited by both hatred and cast time with your traps. Stacking 6 traps is cute, but you need to cast 6 times and spend well over your maximum 150 hatred. Scatter literally triples the effectiveness of Spike Trap, which is clearly wrong. However, if you took scatter out you'd just throw ST away and never use it again, as the base skill is underpowered, rather than Scatter being OP.

As for Caltrops, the snare effect is basically ignored by 90% of elite packs so the base skill is useless. The root effect of TG however is a total lifesaver, and if I wanted to not die 50 times a day I would be using it. I use Bait the Trap only because I am playing softcore atm and have a weird build that enjoys ridiculous crit with my bad gear, but TG is clearly a better choice as I have learned and I shouldn't bother with the caltrops without it.

To make the other runes viable, they need to drop the base cost on Spike down to 10 hatred, simple as that. Leave scatter where it is at 30. The delay is punishment enough for the power of the skill, you don't need to make it so expensive you may as well use cluster arrow!

To fix caltrops, they'd need to make boss mobs more vulnerable to snare or CC in general, which is a more severe and fundamental change across the whole game. I think boss minions at least should have 100% CC effect.

[Sky Tan]

"LIKE" the above post.

Lightning Rod is not too bad imo but just not viable in later difficults because of the casting animation and cost vs Scatter.

It just takes too much time and hatred to place the caltrops + 3 ST to down one pack of mobs.


Had been a Chakram addict until some where in Hell in Boss Fights, it is pretty clear the dps difference vs the EAs.

[imthedan]

so how about making Spike trap act as scatter as the basic skill? Then the runes can mod that?

I'm thinking mainly on the spike trap aspect. Caltraps is nice, but I am thinking more offensively built and to be used as a main attack (similar to a trapsin from D2)

[swayzesghost]

Elemental Arrow in general just leaves all of the hatred spender alternatives in the dust. Twin Chakram is death incarnate up until about A3 Hell, but then it gets seriously eclipsed by the various incarnations of Elemental Arrow.

Everybody says this without even trying impale or cluster

Elemental feels like I am shooting enemies with spit wads. Your mileage may vary

[DaemonX]

Everybody says this without even trying impale or cluster

Elemental feels like I am shooting enemies with spit wads. Your mileage may vary

I assure you, I have tried both impale and cluster and multishot extensively. I was one who always argued that Elemental was overrated and the other skills were worth a look.

Then I hit 60 and tried Act 2 inferno. I was coping ok - until I switched to NT and found out just how OP it truly is. 'In the dust' is an apt simile. It's just...plain better than everything else in the DH arsenal. It's the only thing that actually needs a nerf imo.

Cluster is not viable in inferno because you just run out of steam. You can't keep the big damage pressure up so things slip past you and get into melee range. You need to keep monster in hit recovery with constant big hits - elemental arrow does this due to its high power, low cost. Cluster also costs you a passive skill slot, since grenadier is basically compulsory, and that's another 15% or 20% damage gone.

Impale was my go-to boss killing skill pre-60. Then with NV stacks, swapping skills mid-run wasn't acceptable anymore, and I found that NT does about 6-8 times more dps than Impale against the Act Bosses due to their model size. It just isn't worth giving up a precious defensive skill slot for a skill you will selectively use against certain elite bosses, when NT just does the same job but has built in perks. Impale's burst against a damage reflection mob can get you dead fast, while NT's smaller constant damage is mitigatable by life on hit and leech.

Multishot is a great skill, I used it on and off as my main attack all the way through to Act 1 Inferno, except it only has one viable rune (fire at will), otherwise it suffers from the same problems as Cluster Arrow. While far better at killing normal monsters, it's vastly inferior and inefficient against bosses, and NT deals with normals more than adequately. There's just no point having a skill do something ridiculously well that you already do great.

Compare this to Nether Tentacle...my god. Tentacle has built in leech and multiple smaller hits, meaning you have a chance against big damage reflection mobs. It has unparalleled dps against large bosses, it has fantastic AOE all in the same skill, but its cost is TEN, which is three times cheaper than its nearest competitor. It's stupidly spammable, you don't need special hatred generator tricks or gear. You don't need much leech gear. It sings, it dances, it insta-kills Missile Dampening bosses, it's just overpowered and strictly better than every other skill at all times if you care about keeping your NV stacks.

I don't like that fact, but it's a fact.

That said, when I have some great end-game gear to muck around with, I'll be trying to do a full Inferno clear with a ballistics shooting stars spec or something else fun, but if you just want to get through and survive, or you want to farm gear, or you play hardcore, use nether tentacle or live with regrets.

[JackalYYC]

So, does anyone have a good build? I have a DH, and I am bored of the NT approach. I've wanted to make a trap build for awhile, but I just felt like it wasn't nearly as effective.

What do you guys think?

I'm with you. I was looking forward to unlocking NT after hearing how great it was, but by the time I had access to it, it failed to deliver (for me, personally).

I've used it enough to get a feel for it and how it meshes with my playstyle, but it will not make it into my core build any time soon. I've stuck with what I like, and it's working great for farming Inferno.

LMB - Hungering Arrow~Devouring Arrow
RMB - Cluster Arrow~Shooting Stars
1 - Spike Trap~Bandolier
2 - Vault~Tumble
3 - Fan of Knives~Hail of Knives
4 - Marked for Death~Contagion
P1 - Steady Aim
P2 - Archery
P3 - Sharpshooter

I'm a very mobile player, I like the DH because I can cartwheel around, set off some group AoE, rock back out, plug some damage, and keep it going. Solo Inferno play I can handle every elite group that comes my way (had some trouble with Reflect Damage groups, but since I upgraded to a bow with Life on Hit, things have been gravy). Multiplayer Inferno play (especially with a meat shield) I can churn out huge numbers.

Where Spike Trap comes into play for me, I'm very much a "create a scenario" player. I lay traps ahead of me as I'm exploring, at the edge of my screen. Quite often I wind up coming around the corner into a group, and just lead them backwards through all my traps as I pepper them with Cluster and Hungering. In situations where I can stack them, all the better. Fatal funnels like narrow halls, doorways, dealing with Wallers, it's invaluable. This build may not work for everyone, but it has kept me happy. Key thing to note is that you have to be mobile. I don't like to stand and shoot. I like to bounce around, keep 'em on the move.

Don't knock it til you try it!

Cheers

[imthedan]

I'm with you. I was looking forward to unlocking NT after hearing how great it was, but by the time I had access to it, it failed to deliver (for me, personally).

I've used it enough to get a feel for it and how it meshes with my playstyle, but it will not make it into my core build any time soon. I've stuck with what I like, and it's working great for farming Inferno.

LMB - Hungering Arrow~Devouring Arrow
RMB - Cluster Arrow~Shooting Stars
1 - Spike Trap~Bandolier
2 - Vault~Tumble
3 - Fan of Knives~Hail of Knives
4 - Marked for Death~Contagion
P1 - Steady Aim
P2 - Archery
P3 - Sharpshooter

I'm a very mobile player, I like the DH because I can cartwheel around, set off some group AoE, rock back out, plug some damage, and keep it going. Solo Inferno play I can handle every elite group that comes my way (had some trouble with Reflect Damage groups, but since I upgraded to a bow with Life on Hit, things have been gravy). Multiplayer Inferno play (especially with a meat shield) I can churn out huge numbers.

Where Spike Trap comes into play for me, I'm very much a "create a scenario" player. I lay traps ahead of me as I'm exploring, at the edge of my screen. Quite often I wind up coming around the corner into a group, and just lead them backwards through all my traps as I pepper them with Cluster and Hungering. In situations where I can stack them, all the better. Fatal funnels like narrow halls, doorways, dealing with Wallers, it's invaluable. This build may not work for everyone, but it has kept me happy. Key thing to note is that you have to be mobile. I don't like to stand and shoot. I like to bounce around, keep 'em on the move.

Don't knock it til you try it!

Cheers

I like the idea, but how are you running the build without a bat? Cluster is 50 hatred and then 30 for traps. After a few attacks you're out of hatred.

[JackalYYC]

I like the idea, but how are you running the build without a bat? Cluster is 50 hatred and then 30 for traps. After a few attacks you're out of hatred.

Honestly, it's never been an issue. I do enough run-and-gun with Hungering Arrow that my Hatred is never low when I need to peel off a couple Cluster Arrows and usually even have enough to Vault into the thick of it, whip off a Fan of Knives to snare, then Vault back out and keep going. The only time I'm spending heavy amounts is with Champion Packs, and I kinda like luring them around corners into traps and burst damage before I scamper down the hall and set it up again.

Again, it all depends how your playstyle meshes. This, for me, is effective and wildly entertaining. 150k trap crits make me giggle.