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## Re: Ultimate monk guide

Originally Posted by Athenau
Since when does dex/dodge not scale well? It scales _better_ than both armor and resists. Effective health scales linearly with armor. Your dodge chance scales linearly with dex, which means that your effective health scales super-linearly with dex.

If your dodge chance is kd where k is some constant and d is your dex, your chance to be hit is 1-kd, and your effective health multiplier is 1/(1-kd). This is asymptotic to infinity at d=1/k and grows much faster than any linear function.

People seem to be confused because dodge has breakpoints where additional points in dex have a lower benefit, but the scaling is still linear between breakpoints. You might only get .01% dodge per point of dex after 1000 (the last breakpoint) as opposed to .1% for each point below 100, but you will always get .01% per point above 1000, because the scaling is linear.

Maybe some numbers will help. Against mlvl 60 enemies:

1000 armor 25% DR +33.3% EHP
2000 armor 40% DR +66.6% EHP
3000 armor 50% DR +100% EHP
4000 armor 57% DR +133.35 EHP

1000 dex 30% dodge +43% EHP
2000 dex 40% dodge +66% EHP
3000 dex 50% dodge +100% EHP
4000 armor 60% dodge +150% EHP

At no point is dodge worse in terms of EHP than armor, and you can clearly the super-linear EHP scaling at work.

That isn't to say you want to dump everything into dex, you want a relatively even balance of dodge/resists/armor for best results, but dodge does not scale worse than other forms of mitigation, in fact it scales better.

first off all you'll never get beyond 2k dex anyway. id say that most monks will never go beyond 1,5 k

second. Armor has a lower Itembudget than Dex. so comparing them 1:1 is not very sensible either.

third: dodging is simply not solid because not everything can be dodged. and on some hits i dont want to rely on dodging in the first place. If iam in Inferno Belial and i have the choice between 50% editional EHP through Dodge or through 50% more EHP through AR / Resist
I would always go for the AR / resist. you simply cannot rely on dodging every time. and you cannot stack it well. and even though it might scales lineary and not logarythmic like AR and resist. the Dodge ranges you describe cannot be reached .... dex is just not good for stacking evasion.

In Inferno you get bombarded with a ton of elemental dmg which cannot be dodged even if you had 100% dodge...

i guess its good because every monk at 60 has around 700-1200 dex and thus ~24%-32% extra dodge a barbarian would never want to accumulate.but thats already it... i think making an effort to stack Dodge beyond using the Dodge Mantra. is a waste of affix-, and skill- slots; as far as bang for the buck is concerned.

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## Re: Ultimate monk guide

White pretty much nailed it for me.

As for Keen Eye, it provides about 8-9% armor increase for me, far below Concussion's 20% less damage and the attack speed reduction. FoT has the advantage of knocking stuff back, - with enough attack speed, anything short of an elite pack becomes trivial as it stands permaknocked.

Regardless, resistances are awesome due to HWE. Doesn't mean you should skip other stats, though - dex, vita, ares, xres. Other stuff such as health per spirit, life leech or life on hit are great as well, but you need a minimum base of resilience before seeing an advantage in those.

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## Re: Ultimate monk guide

How much armor do you have WhiteGiant? I think 2k dex is quite possible to reach, I'm sitting at 1.6k dex and vit and still have several slots that could use a heavy upgrade in both departments. Yesterday I sold a fist weapon that had 300+ dex for example, and the ones I'm using have much less. I expect in the future when people will have better gear to be something normal.
Anyway I get your point and can't really disagree about the dodge mechanics. All in all one of the complaints about the monks (and melees in general) is that we need really good (and expensive) gear to do what others do much easily. I can see quite a few viable builds for monks, but most of em require a massive investment in gear, at least with the rarity and prices we have right now. Guess in a few months it will be different.

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## Re: Ultimate monk guide

first off all you'll never get beyond 2k dex anyway. id say that most monks will never go beyond 1,5 k
The point was to show that dodge scales better (so the "diminishing" returns argument is garbage).

second. Armor has a lower Itembudget than Dex. so comparing them 1:1 is not very sensible either.
Comparing them 1:1 makes dex look worse,not better. In reality, you get a lot of base armor for free (i.e it doesn't cost an affix slot), so (up to a point) stacking strength/armor on top of that is less effective than putting the equivalent amount in dex. If you have 1000 armor just from gear, then stacking an additional 1000 points of armor puts you at 40% DR, which is a 66% increase in EHP.

On the other hand if you put those points in dex, you get 25% DR and 30% dodge, or 47.5% mitigation which is a 90% increase in EHP. The more base armor you have, the more pronounced this effect.

In Inferno you get bombarded with a ton of elemental dmg which cannot be dodged even if you had 100% dodge...
"Tons" being desecrated and plagued? Everything else is AFAICT, dodge-able.

I would always go for the AR / resist. you simply cannot rely on dodging every time. and you cannot stack it well. and even though it might scales lineary and not logarythmic like AR and resist. the Dodge ranges you describe cannot be reached .... dex is just not good for stacking evasion.
Armor and resists have the benefit of protecting you from getting one shotted. Once you have enough mitigation to avoid that, then the fact that dodge is probabilistic doesn't matter. So yes, this is a drawback of dodge, but it's counterbalanced by the fact that dex gives you a) more damage, and b) another EHP multiplier which is always more effective than sinking the equivalent number of points into fewer multipliers.

i guess its good because every monk at 60 has around 700-1200 dex and thus ~24%-32% extra dodge a barbarian would never want to accumulate.but thats already it... i think making an effort to stack Dodge beyond using the Dodge Mantra. is a waste of affix-, and skill- slots; as far as bang for the buck is concerned.
This is wrong. Whether pumping dex is worthwhile depends on how much mitigation you have from other sources, and how much the indirect benefit of doing more damage improves your survivability.

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## Re: Ultimate monk guide

Originally Posted by Athenau
The point was to show that dodge scales better (so the "diminishing" returns argument is garbage).
they are not exactly diminishing returns; as you said the increase in EHP rises like you'd excpect from a square function. but the range of dex you can accumulate is is very limited. so describing how you get greater and greater returns as you go towards the 8000 dex isnt very helpful...

Originally Posted by Athenau
Comparing them 1:1 makes dex look worse,not better. In reality, you get a lot of base armor for free (i.e it doesn't cost an affix slot), so (up to a point) stacking strength/armor on top of that is less effective than putting the equivalent amount in dex. If you have 1000 armor just from gear, then stacking an additional 1000 points of armor puts you at 40% DR, which is a 66% increase in EHP.

On the other hand if you put those points in dex, you get 25% DR and 30% dodge, or 47.5% mitigation which is a 90% increase in EHP. The more base armor you have, the more pronounced this effect.
i disagree again: if you look out for the AR Affix you can often triple the base armor of any given item; or get AR from items which would otherwise have none. I could use the same argument for Dex ; every monk if tanky or not will have a considerable amount of dex @ 60 and thus a reasonable amount dodge ; and if it is about 1000 its quite a bit of bang for the buck.

"Tons" being desecrated and plagued? Everything else is AFAICT, dodge-able.[/QUOTE]
not to forget Firechains, Frozen and Arcane. certain baseline mob and boss attacks aswell.

Originally Posted by Athenau
Armor and resists have the benefit of protecting you from getting one shotted. Once you have enough mitigation to avoid that, then the fact that dodge is probabilistic doesn't matter. So yes, this is a drawback of dodge, but it's counterbalanced by the fact that dex gives you a) more damage, and b) another EHP multiplier which is always more effective than sinking the equivalent number of points into fewer multipliers.
This is wrong. Whether pumping dex is worthwhile depends on how much mitigation you have from other sources, and how much the indirect benefit of doing more damage improves your survivability.
well i can hardly argue with that, but everyone plays on a budget. and thus cannot afford to shoot for the absolute perfect ratio with perfect rolls ; if that'd be the case iam sure barbarians would gladly go for 30-40 dodge aswell ...

dont get me wrong if were to get free dodge i'd gladly take it but i dont think its worth the buck. sure i get dps out of dex too; but if i go for crit / IAS i get dps out of my weapon and dex. so dex is not what i would be looking for if i already had around ~1000. maybe that changes in time ( balance patches 'n stuff ).

but as it is now with the special needs of OWE and generally better itemrequirements for monks to progress i dont see myself investing that much effort in equipping my monk, given that i will hit brickwalls @ act 3 and 4 anyways.

much less could i farm the items i needed with a monk. well maybe i could but that would require ALOT of trading. and i found it more cozy to just level a DH and kite farm like everyone else who makes progress ...

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## Re: Ultimate monk guide

Originally Posted by WhiteGiant
much less could i farm the items i needed with a monk. well maybe i could but that would require ALOT of trading. and i found it more cozy to just level a DH and kite farm like everyone else who makes progress ...
Exactly what I did, if end game requires you to kite/attack from ranged, why not be the best class that is designed for that?

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## Re: Ultimate monk guide

Exactly what I did, if end game requires you to kite/attack from ranged, why not be the best class that is designed for that?
It's sad and says a lot of the state of the game that most monk discussions I've read end with the same sentence. At least we can transfer most gear between characters but still...everytime I try to level my demon hunter I feel just bad, like it's an obligation I shouldn't have to do. Guess I'll be one of those monks farming act 1 for a long time.

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## Re: Ultimate monk guide

they are not exactly diminishing returns; as you said the increase in EHP rises like you'd excpect from a square function. but the range of dex you can accumulate is is very limited. so describing how you get greater and greater returns as you go towards the 8000 dex isnt very helpful...
Well, the other half of that demonstration was to show that at no point was dex worse than armor. So while I agree that the dex values in that table were impractically high, you are never worse off mitigation-wise by choosing dex.

i disagree again: if you look out for the AR Affix you can often triple the base armor of any given item; or get AR from items which would otherwise have none. I could use the same argument for Dex ; every monk if tanky or not will have a considerable amount of dex @ 60 and thus a reasonable amount dodge ; and if it is about 1000 its quite a bit of bang for the buck.
But that extra AR isn't free, which is my point. It takes an affix as well, so you have to choose between the benefits on top of stacking more armor on top of your base, or stacking dex. Ditto for the "you already have dex" argument, that dex isn't free. You had to consciously gear for it, which is an implicit acknowledgment that dex is pretty useful.

+armor does seem to be available in larger quantities than individual +stats (roughly twice as much) so there is that. Then again, you get a lot of armor without even trying. For example, I'm sitting at ~2700 without level 60 gear (haven't gone shopping for inferno) and with all my items centered around IAS/dex/vit/resists.

not to forget Firechains, Frozen and Arcane. certain baseline mob and boss attacks aswell.
Firechains and Arcane can be dodged. Frozen can't, but the danger from frozen is not the damage, but the freeze, so armor and resists won't help you either. I've never seen a regular attack that coudn't be dodged, ditto for boss attacks. Basically the stuff that can't be dodged is limited to ground effects (molten, desecrated, plagued).

dont get me wrong if were to get free dodge i'd gladly take it but i dont think its worth the buck. sure i get dps out of dex too; but if i go for crit / IAS i get dps out of my weapon and dex. so dex is not what i would be looking for if i already had around ~1000. maybe that changes in time ( balance patches 'n stuff ).
Crit is a bad choice for monks. Monks don't get +crit damage from their skills, so you have to burn even more affixes to make crit useful. IAS is a great choice, but it only shows up on a few slots (rings, amulet, weapon) so it isn't competing with dex on the rest.

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## Re: Ultimate monk guide

dont underestimate crit ; its true that the itembudget for crit and crit dmg is high but. but it scales better and better the more you have.

also the last rune of Sweeping wind scales incredibly well with critchance ; even without high crit dmg multiplyer.

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## Re: Ultimate monk guide

Originally Posted by WhiteGiant
dont underestimate crit ; its true that the itembudget for crit and crit dmg is high but. but it scales better and better the more you have.

also the last rune of Sweeping wind scales incredibly well with critchance ; even without high crit dmg multiplyer.
Every stats costs the same. It's just that some are more valuable for certain classes.

Some people have shown criticism towards my idea of "diminishing returns" on dodge. My point was that since the monk had high dexterity (as it is needed to deal damage), focusing on resists, which we start with none of, ends up yielding more mitigation faster. Acquiring 50% more reduction than what you currently have through dodge would be more difficult than acquiring 50% more reduction through resists.

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