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  1. #41
    IncGamers Member
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    Re: The Myth of Build Variety

    Update after Beating Inferno Act 2:

    So I spent about 15 million to gear up my barb--not outrageous, but certainly a fair amount of gold and effort involved (no real money gold buying, thanks). Spending this much gold on some pretty decent items leaves you pretty much one viable build: the tank we all know and love.

    That said, I'm a pretty reasonable tank--dying in Act 2 was very rare--but I can't kill worth a damn in 4-player games (with a 920 dps axe, for what it is worth). Would I like to try some of the other skills? I have tried them all. Dropping any of the defensive passives means quick and frequent deaths. Revenge is certainly a must. Ignoring Warcry (Impunity) is just silly. Adding any offensive skill at the expense of my current Ignore Pain, Leap, or Berserker Rage can be situationally useful, but that's, again, part of the problem.

    Blzzard touts this wonderful systems that lets us respec at will, yet they make a system (Neph Valor) that gives us a HUGE disincentive for swapping skill situationally. Anyone who changes skills during a run is simply playing stupidly--especially with the premium on gear for barbs.

    Now, perhaps if I were able (and willing to put the time in) to spend 40, 50, or more millions on gear I might be able to switch to a reliable offensive build. I don't expect to see that any time soon. Oddly enough I find a system that restricts most of its features to very, very late game play a bit less than optimal.




  2. #42
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    Re: The Myth of Build Variety

    A major function of NV is to not make you switch specs all the time, and I'm happy to see it working. I agree there's a huge power gap between offensive and defensive builds, and I think it should be looked into. But it's difficult because if you make them equally powerful, offensive will be best as it lets you kill faster.



  3. #43
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    Re: The Myth of Build Variety

    Quote Originally Posted by Ixnatifual View Post
    A major function of NV is to not make you switch specs all the time, and I'm happy to see it working. I agree there's a huge power gap between offensive and defensive builds, and I think it should be looked into. But it's difficult because if you make them equally powerful, offensive will be best as it lets you kill faster.
    I have to say the NV system just makes matter worse. We start with a system that has very limited depth but lets you pick at will from virtually limitless combinations. Not my preference, but fair enough. But wait--actually playing the game locks you into a very limited subset of these combinations to play effectively. They lose me there. If I have to stick to one combination--which the game mechanics force us to do--I would like to be able to develop that combination a little bit by--oh, I don't know--devoting some extra resources to my favorite skills when I level maybe?




  4. #44
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    Re: The Myth of Build Variety

    I'm happy with not swapping skills all the time. I'm not happy with having skills that outright blow all other skills out of the water. There isn't even a room for a fury spender because they add too little compared to the alternatives (for a tank), especially when you spend most of your time revenge spamming and trying to get some additional life back with frenzy in between.

    Really, if your build isn't 100% focused on not dying, you're going to die without incredible gear that can make up for lack of defensive skills. And of course Wrath of the Berserker is the only skill that is worth considering for damage as a tank to help get those elites down before they enrage - Anything else just isn't as good for that 1 slot that doesn't really have a good defensive option (since frenzy, furious charge, revenge, threatening shout and warcry are a must, but ignore pain and ground stomp aren't really all that great and can be dropped for a damage ability when soloing).

    The problem is a combination of extreme defensive requirements and some skills just being outright better than others. The system itself is just fine. The system allows for build variety. The skills themselves (and to a lesser degree, the game) don't.




  5. #45
    IncGamers Member Damouse's Avatar
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    Re: The Myth of Build Variety

    Quote Originally Posted by JEB90 View Post
    I'm just a bitter D2 player nostalgically longing for the old days.
    Yes. Yes, you are.

    For me biggest problem is knowing halfway though NM, that the build I want to and enjoy playing, won't be able to make it in hell/inferno. There's maybe 2 different barb builds that can take on hell, and most of them are heavy on defensive skills.
    I wonder if its because you're under-geared and rushing through the game?

    Blzzard touts this wonderful systems that lets us respec at will, yet they make a system (Neph Valor) that gives us a HUGE disincentive for swapping skill situationally. Anyone who changes skills during a run is simply playing stupidly--especially with the premium on gear for barbs.
    Oh man, this is great. You complain about not having depth in your builds, but you cannot create or adopt a build viable enough to do an NV run with?

    Now, perhaps if I were able (and willing to put the time in) to spend 40, 50, or more millions on gear I might be able to switch to a reliable offensive build. I don't expect to see that any time soon.
    Congratulations, you've figured out the diablo series! Nothing remains after you beat the content but gearing. If that should come as a surprise to you then I believe the many civil and world wars you've seen in your long stint as a Diablo veteran have taken their toll.



  6. #46
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    Re: The Myth of Build Variety

    The thing is, that the Diablo 2 barbarian (my main for 10 years), could be played using a single skill. Sure, you can use all those abilities you listed, but the game doesn't require you to do so. Get sufficient life steal, and you can frenzy your way to Hell and beyond without much effort. On the other hand, while playing Diablo 3, I find myself constantly using all active abilities I chose.
    Besides there were lots of useless and redundant abilities in Diablo 2 - why use Double Swing, when Frenzy is better in all respects? Why use Leap, when Leap Attack does damage? Would you ever put a single point in the Increased Stamina/Find Potion if they weren't a requirement for higher level skills? Grim Ward - why would you even use that, when you have Howl?



  7. #47
    IncGamers Member BohemianStalker's Avatar
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    Re: The Myth of Build Variety

    Quote Originally Posted by JEB90 View Post
    Update after Beating Inferno Act 2:

    So I spent about 15 million to gear up my barb--not outrageous, but certainly a fair amount of gold and effort involved (no real money gold buying, thanks). Spending this much gold on some pretty decent items leaves you pretty much one viable build: the tank we all know and love.


    That said, I'm a pretty reasonable tank--dying in Act 2 was very rare--but I can't kill worth a damn in 4-player games (with a 920 dps axe, for what it is worth). Would I like to try some of the other skills? I have tried them all. Dropping any of the defensive passives means quick and frequent deaths. Revenge is certainly a must. Ignoring Warcry (Impunity) is just silly. Adding any offensive skill at the expense of my current Ignore Pain, Leap, or Berserker Rage can be situationally useful, but that's, again, part of the problem.

    Blzzard touts this wonderful systems that lets us respec at will, yet they make a system (Neph Valor) that gives us a HUGE disincentive for swapping skill situationally. Anyone who changes skills during a run is simply playing stupidly--especially with the premium on gear for barbs.

    Now, perhaps if I were able (and willing to put the time in) to spend 40, 50, or more millions on gear I might be able to switch to a reliable offensive build. I don't expect to see that any time soon. Oddly enough I find a system that restricts most of its features to very, very late game play a bit less than optimal.
    1.3 patch will take 45%+(because they will also nerf acts little) off your back, I think that will lead to much better build variety = you will be able to drop 1-2 def skills and put 1-2 offense skills.



  8. #48
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    Re: The Myth of Build Variety

    I don't think the Diablo 2 skill system was even particularly good. It's my opinion that the items in D2 really carried the skills and the various builds. There were/are people on both sides of the fence in regards to the unique properties and the "oskills" on uniques and runewords in D2, but I was a really big fan. Unique and unconventional builds that are constructed around an item really appeal to me. I enjoyed things like the Zeal Enchantress and the Bear Sorc. IMO, the flaw with the many of the 1.09 runewords was not the skills that they granted, but the sheer power of the items in regards to everything else in the game.

    So, getting back to the point, I'm more disappointed with the bland items in D3 than i am with the skill system. Unique items lend to unique builds, and there really aren't any that fit the bill in D3.



  9. #49
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    Re: The Myth of Build Variety

    OP is high. Builds vary far more than in D2.

    Some skills are mandatory, but even those skills have multiple rune effects that are used in different situations, and that the majority can't agree on.

    Every game I join before I start stacking my Neph Valor, I consider who I'm playing with (solo, or if co-op, what classes) what content I'll be going through, and pick a spec that fits best. Sometimes it's one or two skills or runes changed, but it's awesome being able to do that. Then being able to totally switch it up just for a progression boss.

    My spec has also evolved based on my gear. And the variety of builds there is before level 60 hasn't been mentioned.

    It seems like everyone who says "I really tried hard to like this game as much as D2" really means, "I really tried to accept D3 as its own game, but I really just wanted D2 with better graphics." I reason this because their arguments don't make any sense.

    And to answer your question, I'm not playing because I'm working. :-)



  10. #50
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    Re: The Myth of Build Variety

    In my opinion, people have this illusion (well, for me it is a illusion) that a skill tree automatically makes D2 superior because "oh I have to choose some skill or another to dump the majority of my skill points" (so the skill actually continues to be useful the whole game without becoming obsolete), "so if I can't possibly test all skills/spells during a single playthrough with one character it makes the game better desigin!" (i.e. I have to create a new char to try a different build - re-specs in D2 was too little, too lale for my taste).

    Really, getting locked to one build without damaging your character beyond redemption to later levels was boring as hell (no pun intended) in D2. I rarely create more than one char to test different builds because, for me, it was a cheap tactic to try and make people play more. So I never had a lightning sorceress or a shapeshifting druid because D2 system punishes hard the player in later levels if they try to spend points in many different abilities to, perhaps, have more FUN.

    In D3 I lost count how many builds I tried with the classes I'm playing *with the same char*! On the fly! Trying to figure the best build for me actually USING the skills, instead of only reading tooltips of them! For *me* it is a total blast, pure, pure fun.
    But apparently it is a way of "dumbing down", so perhaps these people will have more fun with a system that locks players in a build, punish them for trying to truly have fun and thus limits their choices.



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