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# Thread: Regeneration and Dam Redux.

1. ## Re: Regeneration and Dam Redux.

Originally Posted by zUkUu
conclusion: HPS has the same effect independently. DTH gets worse the better your DR become as it's directly connected to it.
all that means is that you can start to drop DTH-affixes for other stuff the more you stack DR.
I was unaware you wanted to compare it to HPS! They appear to be closely related, but the implications of one being an absolute value and the other being a percentage are huge.

I should start by saying you have several errors, but don't fret because I'm pretty sure the majority of the people have not looked into the inner workings of DR, regeneration and various other forms of defense-related math objects.

HPS does have the same effect independently, but the value of it varies exponentially as a function of DR. Meanwhile, DTH never gets any worse or better with DR, because it is not a function of DR. The only thing changing the relative value of %DTH is a change to the percent itself. An absolute change in health changes the absolute value of the return of %dth, but the relative value (%EHP) is never changed as long as the %dth remains the same.

I'll prove that the value (worth, not amount) of HPS varies exponentially with a simple thought experiment! Imagine you have 10 hps and you have a constant 10 incoming dps. Congratulations, you are immortal! This means that the worth of HPS as DR is either equal to 1 (it could be above 1 in other scenarios, but it means nothing in our case).

Conversely, if you have an incoming constant 100 dps and 10 hps, the HPS could simplified be said to equal to 10% DR(/s).

Here's the problem with modeling regeneration! You need an actual incoming dps (swing size and swingtimer) to compare to. The absolute size because the amount of health regen is an absolute value, the swingtimer because regeneration is a function of time (quite literally H per second), and both of them are constantly fluctuating in actual gameplay.

We can however say one thing about regeneration for sure! Because the health regenerated is an absolute value, it means that the value of 1 health regenerated is increased by your defensive stats. What follows is that regeneration is better for more defensive builds, shield-equipped ToN Barbarians etc, rather than your dual-wielding frenzied "kill before killed" type.

So let's forget about regeneration for a while and for the moment think of it as an affix of "highly relative worth but definitely better for defensive builds".

Back to DTH. I don't quite understand why you didn't grasp my previous explanation, as I believe it provided enough clarity. Is it what EHP is that you have difficulty understanding? You are literally using the exact same explanation that I already showed you is a false way of thinking.

2. ## Re: Regeneration and Dam Redux.

Originally Posted by Superstate
Back to DTH. I don't quite understand why you didn't grasp my previous explanation, as I believe it provided enough clarity. Is it what EHP is that you have difficulty understanding? You are literally using the exact same explanation that I already showed you is a false way of thinking.
I think "what's ideal to have as defense" and DTH becomes less effective in a practical manner. we have 6 affixes per slots and 10% DTH can simply be dropped later on if you stepped up your DR and does not need to carry over with every upgrade and can be replaced with HPS on a few items for instance. practical speaking 90% pure global DR is also quite unlikely, tho. the other thing we need to wait for is how DTH actually works. if there is even a split second delay, it means damage from multiple sources simultaneously equals death, making it less reliable as defense stat.

and by no means is comparing it a "false way of thinking", regardless of effective health. I do agree that HPS does not calculate in the DPS, but that is the point of an independent value, it's independent both ways. all I compare is the practical effectiveness. if DR>X then HPS>DTH.

3. ## Re: Regeneration and Dam Redux.

Originally Posted by zUkUu
I think "what's ideal to have as defense" and DTH becomes less effective in a practical manner. we have 6 affixes per slots and 10% DTH can simply be dropped later on if you stepped up your DR and does not need to carry over with every upgrade and can be replaced with HPS on a few items for instance. practical speaking 90% pure global DR is also quite unlikely, tho. the other thing we need to wait for is how DTH actually works. if there is even a split second delay, it means damage from multiple sources simultaneously equals death, making it less reliable as defense stat.

and by no means is comparing it a "false way of thinking", regardless of effective health. I do agree that HPS does not calculate in the DPS, but that is the point of an independent value, it's independent both ways. all I compare is the practical effectiveness. if DR>X then HPS>DTH.

I hate to sound like a broken record and if I offended you I apologize, but it is a false way of thinking because you still haven't realized this:

It does not get less effective in a practical manner, it always remains equally effective.

When you're comparing HPS to DTH and seeing the ratio changes, there are three reasons: you're looking at absolute health (wrong), you're looking at DTH and assuming the worth of it changed (wrong), or you're seeing the wildly differing worth of n hps (right).

So no, it is not wrong to try to compare the two, but the way you approach it simply is.

4. ## Re: Regeneration and Dam Redux.

Originally Posted by Superstate
I hate to sound like a broken record and if I offended you I apologize, but it is a false way of thinking because you still haven't realized this:

It does not get less effective in a practical manner, it always remains equally effective.
actually yes, I felt a bit offended. x)
it's a discussion tho, so I see nothing wrong with having a dispute via arguments.
Originally Posted by Superstate
you're looking at absolute health (wrong), you're looking at DTH and assuming the worth of it changed (wrong), or you're seeing the wildly differing worth of n hps (right).
1 and 2 are basically the same and absolute health is the only thing that matters in a practical approach IF a) your DR is high enough to survive any hit(s) for a second anyway and b) HPS can outvalue DTH due to DR.
you need 9 affixes to get 90% DTH (it's the max number as far as I know right?) but only 2 HPS affixes to get 645 HPS and more. If a) and b) are given DTH will NEVER heal you and you'll die sooner or later whereas HPS actually heals you. the values do matter in this case as it'll save you affixes in the end.

I'm totally on your side that DTH is always effective and never loses its effect, but it can be overcome by HPS (or other defense stats) if we compare the effectiveness in connection with DR and the amount of affixes. We need actual numbers to compare them effectively tho. it all depends how much DR and HP we have in the end. Even DR itself has a diminishing return in comparison with Dodge (as does DTH in this case as well). purely practical speaking. why bother with reducing low damage income even further when you can simply out heal it [which is also always active not only when you get damage]?^^

I do understand your reasoning and and I'm open to examples and discussions, not that you think I'm at stalemate. this is simply my approach on that matter.

5. ## Re: Regeneration and Dam Redux.

Even with 1k/s healing and 90% damage reduce the monsters in Inferno are gonna be kicking our asses, if a mob hits for 140k unmitigated ( lets say theres a 2sec cooldown ) and you have 90% reduce, thats 14k/2sec, and you're not gonna be fighting single monsters, even if you had 3 on you, thats 21k/s damage ( thats with 0% dodge, which is unlikely, and also it shows how important dodge will be ).

6. ## Re: Regeneration and Dam Redux.

Even with 1k/s healing and 90% damage reduce the monsters in Inferno are gonna be kicking our asses, if a mob hits for 140k unmitigated ( lets say theres a 2sec cooldown ) and you have 90% reduce, thats 14k/2sec, and you're not gonna be fighting single monsters, even if you had 3 on you, thats 21k/s damage.
that's what I mean we need numbers to be more accurate. the DR itself plays a huge role., avoiding abilities also matter. I think you can have roughly over 3k HPS btw.

edit:
according to the hero planer:
max of everything (at least with witch doctor gear)

+760 ressist all
+1483 Vitality
+75% health ((1550 hp as WD + 1483 VIT*10) *1,75 = ~30k health)
+2920 HPS
+90% DTH

7. ## Re: Regeneration and Dam Redux.

It can get worse......

http://diablonut.incgamers.com/planner/22272

Not included: Armor from VIT. 25% armor from passive. 30% innate barb dam redux.

Originally Posted by zUkUu
that's what I mean we need numbers to be more accurate. the DR itself plays a huge role., avoiding abilities also matter. I think you can have roughly over 3k HPS btw.

edit:
according to the hero planer:
max of everything (at least with witch doctor gear)

+760 ressist all
+1483 Vitality
+75% health ((1550 hp as WD + 1483 VIT*10) *1,75 = ~30k health)
+2920 HPS
+90% DTH

8. ## Re: Regeneration and Dam Redux.

Originally Posted by larcatnecro
It can get worse......

http://diablonut.incgamers.com/planner/22272

Not included: Armor from VIT. 25% armor from passive. 30% innate barb dam redux.
hehe yeah. doctor can also have -40% damage (-20% flat out and -20% when a mob is affected by poison damage), I'm sure we'll need those amounts to a degree tho.

the problem with having everything weapon dependent is that you only need 1 affix per item to give you almost a maximum possible offensive leaving up to 5 affixes open for defense and utility. apart from the mainstat there is only haste, crit damage and crit chance really.

as far as I can tell you can also get 100% Immunity against stun, roots and freezes (SRF). needs 10 affixes tho.

9. ## Re: Regeneration and Dam Redux.

That is definitely one of the biggest design flaws in the gear system. The Damage to Health affix, generally, should probably go.

I didn't go for the %total armor affixes here either, which I think may end up increasing your final armor more than the 250%-300% of item affixes, depending on when the stacking occurs.

Including elemental damage in armor, and including physical damage in resists was also probably a mistake, but maybe necessary to avoid the D2 style one shots.

Originally Posted by zUkUu
hehe yeah. doctor can also have -40% damage (-20% flat out and -20% when a mob is affected by poison damage), I'm sure we'll need those amounts to a degree tho.

the problem with having everything weapon dependent is that you only need 1 affix per item to give you almost a maximum possible offensive leaving up to 5 affixes open for defense and utility. apart from the mainstat there is only haste, crit damage and crit chance really.

as far as I can tell you can also get 100% Immunity against stun, roots and freezes (SRF). needs 10 affixes tho.

10. ## Re: Regeneration and Dam Redux.

Try 3k/s healing, and three layers of 80-90% dam redux (armor, resists, damage to health.)

You are talking about a million effective HP/s passive tanking.

Even with 1k/s healing and 90% damage reduce the monsters in Inferno are gonna be kicking our asses, if a mob hits for 140k unmitigated ( lets say theres a 2sec cooldown ) and you have 90% reduce, thats 14k/2sec, and you're not gonna be fighting single monsters, even if you had 3 on you, thats 21k/s damage ( thats with 0% dodge, which is unlikely, and also it shows how important dodge will be ).

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