Regarding "dumbed down" and "lack of customization".

[Doppel]

"Don't take away my toys waaaah"
Yep, sure doesn't sound like a 5 year old.

[Silverbanshee]

you just want to have it now, and more then someone else, and all flavours at once.
The second option isn't applicable since it's based on a fallacy, the fallacy that not everyone has the exact same options.
I don't care if you pick the same options i pick, i don't have the mentality of a 5 year old like you. I only want the chosen options of you and me to have some importance to how our characters develop, which is an important factor in any roleplaying game.

@ Silverbanshee: Yes i get it, you like loot. We're talking about leveling here though.

your analogy would be more accurate if players were given all skills at level one and could choose immediately. That is simply not the case. players gain access to skills progressively throughout the course of leveling to 60. there is no instant gratification - players must make choices about what skills of the ones they have access to will be most effective against the environment. there will always be some choice or trade-off involved and those choices are impactful.

And, while my comment about loot was meant as tongue-in-cheek, it also goes to the larger point about leveling. In Diablo 3 Items ARE leveling. with the games reliance on DPS for killing, upgrading your gear as you progress through the game is critical. In the same way putting a point in Frozen Orb as you level, improved it's effect, getting that next higher DPS wand or sword of whatever will do that in Diablo 3. same basic metaphor, different implementation. The difference to me is in Diablo 3 I'll get to choose which skills my new item will make more effective.

[snowcatcher]

Omg, i cant believe this thread made 7 pages already...

[buddah]

players must make choices about what skills of the ones they have access to will be most effective against the environment. there will always be some choice or trade-off involved and those choices are impactful.

I have to disagree with this. You will always have the optimal skills available to you at any point in the game because the game is designed that way. The only choice you have to make is pick one of those any time you want. It can be called a choice but it certainly isn't impactful.

[Buu]

I understand that in D3 you get more abilities then in D2, so unlocking more abilities is more fun then unlocking less abilities. In that very simplistic sense "leveling" is more interesting in D3 then in D2.


However to me the problem with leveling in D3 is that you don't work towards anything specific, you just unlock random abilities along the way and some of those abilities you will decide to use for a period of time and others you won't.
In D2 with every level up you are given the ability to increase the power of your specific build, whether that build is a cookie cutter or something wacky doesn't matter, it's something to look forward to.
When you level in D3 you just switch around skills and use those that are most convenient. You still look forward to unlocking all abilities ofcourse, and then when you're level 60 you will try everything out and never have incentive to level that same character again. You don't level builds in D3, you just get your character to level 60 so that that character can make use of all abilities.


Imagine that you have the new game in your hands right now, you decide upon a character, you have some vague idea of what kind of build you want that character to become, you unlock all abilities, you have some fun trying them all out, you become level 60 and then you look at all the other players that also picked your character. And what do you realise? That they all have access to all the same abilities you have access to. You didn't level a unique character, you just unlocked the exact same character as everyone else. Sure, you might see someone that currently makes use of WW as one of their six skills, no problem, just navigate the horrendous skillmenu and voila now you also have WW as one of your six skills. And the vague idea of the build you were going to make? Copied by some random person in less then a minute.


I still remember my first build in D2 (a Fire Golem Necro), and i remember the second, and the third,... I remember how horribly flawed the first was and how i couldn't complete Hell (immunities damn you), and i remember rebuilding him with my newlyfound knowledge excited that maybe now i would be able to defeat Hell. Will anyone still remember their first build in D3 in a few years time? I highly doubt it.


And you know, it isn't very suprising leveling won't be that interesting in D3, because Blizzard doesn't want you to spend your time leveling when you can just get to level 60 and start farming items instead.

I think I'm beginning to see your arguments.

D2 was about building that Fire Golem Necro, or that Meteorb Sorc. You made specific builds as your tastes developed.
D3 is about building a Wizard or a Witch doctor. As you play your class, you develop a taste for particular skills and base your build around that.

What you think is missing in D3, is the 'building into your [Meteorb] [Sorc]'.

Is this a sufficient summary?

[beingmused]

You don't want to earn icecream, you just want to have it now, and more then someone else, and all flavours at once.

Leveling is how you earn access to skills. The fact that you can change which skills are active and which are potential does not make them unearned somehow. You're saying it is childish to want flexibility. You did not address my points about how flexibility not only increases fun, but allows for situational strategic thinking, instead of mindlessly following a build order. People are more likely to experiment and test when they are not locked into a choice forever. And therefore are more likely to have fun - which is the point of a game.

"Being childish" is when you want something that seems good, but is actually bad in the long run. But you haven't given a SINGLE reason why flexibility is bad for the short term or the long term. You personally feel a stronger connection to a character that you can't change (or can only change 3 times ever, or whatever). I feel a stronger connection to a character I can actually experiment and try things out with myself. Not to mention, it is infinitely more enjoyable. And since this is a game, that enjoyment is ultimately the whole freaking point (not a misguided sense of pride).

I think I'm beginning to see your arguments.

D2 was about building that Fire Golem Necro, or that Meteorb Sorc. You made specific builds as your tastes developed.
D3 is about building a Wizard or a Witch doctor. As you play your class, you develop a taste for particular skills and base your build around that.

What you think is missing in D3, is the 'building into your [Meteorb] [Sorc]'.

You can build a Blizzard Wizard (heh) in D3 just as well. Or an elemental arrow DH. Or whatever! The difference is that some people feel that even more important than being able to PLAY as that character, the real reward would be the fact that they've taken the time to make some specific build, and most other people don't have that. If the game was single player only, no one would feel like skill flexibility was bad. But because it is multiplayer...they want to do something that most others can't.

[buddah]

I personally don't care at all what other people do in the game and how they play it...just speaking about my own experience and wishes.

[Karamo]

Wow... I'm pretty darn drunk at the moment, playing J-pop and entertaining the poor people I lured to my lair... I so must read all of this tomorrow...

[Silverbanshee]

I have to disagree with this. You will always have the optimal skills available to you at any point in the game because the game is designed that way. The only choice you have to make is pick one of those any time you want. It can be called a choice but it certainly isn't impactful.

I submit that you have skills available, whether they are optimal depends to a large extent on gear. also the number of available skills and how you fill those slots has an impact on how you play. When I played a trapper, I routinely used 12 or so hot-keyed skills - not possible in Diablo 3 - and with the Nephalim Valor Buff at lvl 60 you won't want to casually swap skills.

How impactful choices are against endgame content is also something we don't know. I believe those choices will be relevant given what Blizzard has said about how they expect Inferno difficulty to operate, and whether one is solo or in a party, etc. , the bottom line is we won't know until we get there.

[Apocalypse]

anyone wanna take a guess at how many more [d2 is better than d3 and heres why] topics we will get before launch?