Regarding "dumbed down" and "lack of customization".

[joeb]

...oops.....

[mr punk]

So, what are Blizzards arguments, really? I have read them and they still makes no sense to me because they are simply not true.

well, some developers are fairly open about it and you'll never get a straight answer from others, just a wall of text full of PR poop. Blizz is in the latter category.

I guess what I am saying is, that if we're continuously robbed of having to make choices, many of us will play the game through a few times and then quickly get bored.

no, not many only some. i don't know whom you think this game is being marketed and targeted at, but it ain't diablo players. secondly, as the most of the responses in this thread demonstrates, the reason most modern games are designed to cradle players like infants is to tap into that very, very large population of people who like dumbed down games. generally, most modern players don't find challenging, difficult or complex, etc games very entertaing. they find them frustrating and too time comsuming.

Will our characters be built from a template with our only interference in that being itemization and runes?

yes, regardless of beta, the released game will still be idiot proofed by dev hand holding for safe consumption for the masses. this will not change. although, i find it hilarious people are trying to convince you otherwise.

2) the other thing I think gets missed is the paradigm shift Blizzard is making -- Diablo 2 Had items - Diablo 3 IS items. Items are essential for every character in D3, in a way they weren't in D2 - everything is about items and the impact they have on your character.

yes, to a degree. although, sometimes they may not know exactly why. they do know they're getting their hands held. also, Blizz paradigm shift isn't novel or original (apparently, except to diablo players. LOL..you guys seems to be late on a lot of things). the industry has been doing this for years, except it doesn't take most of them +10 years of dev time and money to produce such a product. in any event, these threads will continue simply because most players like getting their hands held by developers and some don't.

[mrpinsky]

I also disagree that the experimenters are a casual crowd. wander through the Theorycrafting form for a bit - these are the hard core people looking for ways top optimize builds in general, or a particular flavor of build to fit their RPG ideal for a character or class.

I meant easy or effortless experimentation: Getting all choices for free, without making an effort. The theorycrafters will be bored quickly with D3, because it has this system of "instant gratification", which is very much the opposite of replayability.

[xploziv]

I meant easy or effortless experimentation: Getting all choices for free, without making an effort. The theorycrafters will be bored quickly with D3, because it has this system of "instant gratification", which is very much the opposite of replayability.

Don't think so really. I always made my own builds in D2 (can i say i never made a hammerdin or smiter because i like to try my own) and so far in the Beta i just can't get enough... And i'm playing lvl 10~13 chars... Imagine at lvl 60...

[Silverbanshee]

I meant easy or effortless experimentation: Getting all choices for free, without making an effort. The theorycrafters will be bored quickly with D3, because it has this system of "instant gratification", which is very much the opposite of replayability.

I'll accept that there's no serious repercussions for choices, but this is an Arpg not an RPG. so I'm not sure that's a huge negative. As for boredom, I'm not so sure. I look at it this way. All skills are essentially equal in their effectiveness, since that effectiveness depends solely on gear. Going from that it seems like you have a lot of skill combinations to please yourself with and engage your attention for a while. But that's not what I think will ultimalely hook the Theorycraft crowd in the end. I think that Affixes on items and the debate over what combination of affixes/items produces the best result will hold everyone's interest for the long run.

After all, it's really all about Phat, Phat loot

[Doppel]

I understand that in D3 you get more abilities then in D2, so unlocking more abilities is more fun then unlocking less abilities. In that very simplistic sense "leveling" is more interesting in D3 then in D2.


However to me the problem with leveling in D3 is that you don't work towards anything specific, you just unlock random abilities along the way and some of those abilities you will decide to use for a period of time and others you won't.
In D2 with every level up you are given the ability to increase the power of your specific build, whether that build is a cookie cutter or something wacky doesn't matter, it's something to look forward to.
When you level in D3 you just switch around skills and use those that are most convenient. You still look forward to unlocking all abilities ofcourse, and then when you're level 60 you will try everything out and never have incentive to level that same character again. You don't level builds in D3, you just get your character to level 60 so that that character can make use of all abilities.


Imagine that you have the new game in your hands right now, you decide upon a character, you have some vague idea of what kind of build you want that character to become, you unlock all abilities, you have some fun trying them all out, you become level 60 and then you look at all the other players that also picked your character. And what do you realise? That they all have access to all the same abilities you have access to. You didn't level a unique character, you just unlocked the exact same character as everyone else. Sure, you might see someone that currently makes use of WW as one of their six skills, no problem, just navigate the horrendous skillmenu and voila now you also have WW as one of your six skills. And the vague idea of the build you were going to make? Copied by some random person in less then a minute.


I still remember my first build in D2 (a Fire Golem Necro), and i remember the second, and the third,... I remember how horribly flawed the first was and how i couldn't complete Hell (immunities damn you), and i remember rebuilding him with my newlyfound knowledge excited that maybe now i would be able to defeat Hell. Will anyone still remember their first build in D3 in a few years time? I highly doubt it.


And you know, it isn't very suprising leveling won't be that interesting in D3, because Blizzard doesn't want you to spend your time leveling when you can just get to level 60 and start farming items instead.

[beingmused]

Imagine that you have the new game in your hands right now, you decide upon a character, you have some vague idea of what kind of build you want that character to become, you unlock all abilities, you have some fun trying them all out, you become level 60 and then you look at all the other players that also picked your character. And what do you realise? That they all have access to all the same abilities you have access to.

OH GOD NO!

Here's two different mindsets you can choose to have:
1. "I love that I get to experiment on the fly, try out new combinations, use situational thinking and strategy, and get to play the way I want to."
2. "If anyone even has the OPTION to do something similar to what I'm doing, I don't feel special anymore, and I want to feel more special!"

The first way of seeing things is that of a happy person, who is not constantly defining his or herself by what others are doing. The second way of seeing things is that of, like, Lindsey Lohan or something. You'd rather the game be worse just so that you could create artificial separation between you and others.

[Silverbanshee]

However to me the problem with leveling in D3 is that you don't work towards anything specific, you just unlock random abilities along the way and some of those abilities you will decide to use for a period of time and others you won't.

That may be true for some, but not all. I have a very specific Idea about a wizard I want to build. It involves Force Wave and the Exploding Wave rune. The idea of this appeals to me and now I can work to find skills that complement it and make a viable build. Should my idea not work out, I'm not forced to delete one of a finite number of characters I've become attached to. In D2 I would have discarded that character (or used it as a mule more likely) and spent the time re-leveling a character to the same place as the one I discarded. rewarding for some, but at this point in my Diablo career, it's seems like useless effort to me.

Imagine that you have the new game in your hands right now, you decide upon a character, you have some vague idea of what kind of build you want that character to become, you unlock all abilities, you have some fun trying them all out, you become level 60 and then you look at all the other players that also picked your character. And what do you realise? That they all have access to all the same abilities you have access to. You didn't level a unique character, you just unlocked the exact same character as everyone else. Sure, you might see someone that currently makes use of WW as one of their six skills, no problem, just navigate the horrendous skillmenu and voila now you also have WW as one of your six skills.

Ok, now imagine that you have your character and build with skills all ready at lvl 60, and now you track down or craft all the gear with class specific affixes that make your Wizard the best arcane specialist or the best WW barb or the most party friendly monk. Sure others may have some or all of your skill mix, but it won't be as good or effective as yours because of all the time and attention to detail you have put in to outfitting your Ideal build. there will always be ways to tweak your gear to improve your build, but once you've allocated your skills in a game like D2 your done. for me, this will be the motivator - finding the correct mix of skills and gear to realize my ideas and get me some Phat, Phat Loot

All characters in Diablo 3 will be unique, because their gear makes them so. players may have access to the same skills, but they won't function the same exact way for two different players because their gear ( and its effect on their skills) will be different.

in other word we won't have a boatload of lightning Sorcs with Infinity wielding Mercs in tow showing up in Baal's throne room and leveling it by sneezing...

And the vague idea of the build you were going to make? Copied by some random person in less then a minute.

In view of the dozen of so viable Archetypes that rule Diablo 2 at the moment, this seems less than persuasive.

[Doppel]

OH GOD NO!

Here's two different mindsets you can choose to have:
1. "I love that I get to experiment on the fly, try out new combinations, use situational thinking and strategy, and get to play the way I want to."
2. "If anyone even has the OPTION to do something similar to what I'm doing, I don't feel special anymore, and I want to feel more special!"

The first way of seeing things is that of a happy person, who is not constantly defining his or herself by what others are doing. The second way of seeing things is that of, like, Lindsey Lohan or something. You'd rather the game be worse just so that you could create artificial separation between you and others.

No, the first way of seeing things is that of a smallminded person, someone who can't see past the here and now, someone with the mentality of a 5 year old child that can only enjoy something by having it and as soon as possible. You don't want to earn icecream, you just want to have it now, and more then someone else, and all flavours at once.
The second option isn't applicable since it's based on a fallacy, the fallacy that not everyone has the exact same options.
I don't care if you pick the same options i pick, i don't have the mentality of a 5 year old like you. I only want the chosen options of you and me to have some importance to how our characters develop, which is an important factor in any roleplaying game.

@ Silverbanshee: Yes i get it, you like loot. We're talking about the leveling process here though.

[Raesene]

Don't want to be punished for having fun in a video game? Well, then you must have the mentality of a 5 year old child.