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  1. #21
    IncGamers Member Buu's Avatar
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    Re: Regarding "dumbed down" and "lack of customization".

    Quote Originally Posted by Karamo View Post
    In Diablo 2 there was a lot of choices to be made and you actually made your character your own
    Such as?
    10char



  2. #22
    IncGamers Member JackalYYC's Avatar
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    Re: Regarding "dumbed down" and "lack of customization".

    Quote Originally Posted by Buu View Post
    Such as?
    10char
    I know right? Maybe the choice to pick Chain Lightning before Frozen Orb. I used to really like separating from the herd and picking Hydra. Just to stir things up.

    I was the only one who ever did that.



  3. #23
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    Re: Regarding "dumbed down" and "lack of customization".

    Ok, I'll bite. I've seen a number of these threads, but until the open beta I had no experience of the game and therefore no perspective to respond. Having now played the open beta, limited though it was, I have a much more positive outlook on the game.

    I was originally one of "oh no! no skill trees - they are dumbing this game down for the masses. it will suck the challenge right out of it". I no longer feel this way.

    you make a couple of points I'd like to respond to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karamo View Post
    No!!! From the moment I started playing it was just mad fun and a BIG part of that fun for me was just that; I created my character in many ways. I did not just choose a template and have it grow depending on presets...
    And how many of those builds were viable? yes it's fun to screw around and experiment with wild builds, but if they are unable to survive endgame content, they are an exercise in frustration and quickly discarded. the reality is that the skill tree/synergy system lends itself to the creation of a dozen or so viable archetypes . Don't believe me? pop into any hell ladder game and see what's there - hammerdin, trapper, infinity sorc, windy druid, the variety isn't there. the practical level of customization in D2 is a myth and the current state of the game shows this. Had Blizzard continued down the same path with D3 the game would have been min/maxed to death in a few weeks by experienced D2 players and farmers with the most viable builds would set up shop and the rest of us would have said "been there/ done that"


    Quote Originally Posted by Karamo View Post
    I guess what I am saying is, that if we're continuously robbed of having to make choices, many of us will play the game through a few times and then quickly get bored... In Diablo 2 there was a world of choices and I still have some I haven't tried and trust me, I'm no casual gamer, I'm one of those "hardcore gamez0rs who once met a cute .jpg but didn't get to second base".
    I'm not really sure how this one keeps getting perpetuated. Synergies in D2 locked you into build choices more than the D3 system ever will. I invite you to check out the theorycrafting forum or any of the individual class forums to look at the creative builds being proposed - any of which could be viable in a way that a D2 character with casually assigned skill points would not.

    As an example, I really want to create a Wizard with Wave of Force runed to Exploding Wave, just so I can set it off and watch the chaos. I can do this in D3 knowing A) I won't have irrevocably ruined a character B) if I put the pieces together right I could make a viable character that is fun for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karamo View Post
    I did however try the open beta quickly and, like many other, I was ultimately displeased. There have probably been hundreds and hundreds of threads regarding this but I would still like to hear some discussion regarding this.

    In Diablo 3 beta, each level up felt "meh". There was nothing that made you stop and think and care for some direction of your character. You just kept on plowing on...
    I can only say I had the opposite reaction. far from being "meh" about levels I was excited to try out new skills or runes. Runing Arcane Orb to Obliterate was great and had an immediate impact, and the first time I tried the Barbs leap attack, I about jumped out of my chair because it was so much better and more fun than the D2 equivalent. at that moment the Barbarian went from off my radar to the second character I'll play.

    I think that a couple of things are at work with all of the complaints:

    1) I think people are tired of the beta and it's limited view of the game. the continuous look at the same small amount of content has allowed the perception that the entire game and all of it's difficulties will be like that. I don't think that's true but we'll know in about 17 days.

    2) the other thing I think gets missed is the paradigm shift Blizzard is making -- Diablo 2 Had items - Diablo 3 IS items. Items are essential for every character in D3, in a way they weren't in D2 - everything is about items and the impact they have on your character. DPS from your gear is the biggest determining factor in your killing speed. The much wider variety of affixes and the expanded crating abilities allow for a much broader amount of customization than D2. your success is also more in your hands since you can craft what you can't find on your own.

    In a sense, this Item-centric focus in D3 gives me the most optimism for D3's future. If you would have told Blizzard management ten years ago that they would be supporting Diablo 2 on battle.net at the level they are essentially for free, I think they would have been surprised. But now, with the RMAH (whether you agree with them or not) Blizzard will have the cash to devote to resources for D3's continued development and maintenance. Where it wouldn't have made financial sense to battle the spammers and bots and what have you in D2, the cash infusion D3 will get makes that fight one they can continue whatever gets thrown at them.

    I seem to have wandered a bit, but bottom line, I think D3 will be great fun with loads of customization. And while I'll always love and continue to play D2 I won't feel as if the coming of D3 is the Apocalypse and Blizzard has "ruined" everything.

    Thanks.



  4. #24
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    Re: Regarding "dumbed down" and "lack of customization".

    Quote Originally Posted by joeb View Post
    Dude how is anyone gonna beat inferno....its a fair estimate that our chars will be maxed out by end of second difficulty level. With that said...there is legitimate gripe....every level 60 will have two main skills...and two most powerful runes. Very basic. Not many builds. Why? I just simply think they picked a director that never cleared d2. He probably hate d2 because of all the times he messed a build up. So here we are with d3.Id love for them to allow some customization....maybe 5050....where half of allotment can be the users choice...but. that would take time to figure out. Let's not forget about omitting some items an verbage...blizzards new "our game wont insult you" bs. Sure...there is absolutly legit gripe...people are gonna dump 60 bucks or more. Why was the beta so streamlined...was like walking the mile. That's not diablo. Let's hope the game atleast opens up.
    It's not like they weren't trying different approaches .. They had talent tress..talent trees with synergies, one big talent tree, skill pools with skill points, with limited skill points per difficulty, traits... and now they have current system.. They tested a lot of things..and most of them just didn't accomplished what they really wanted. Freedom in builds and place where players can experiement with different skills, not hoarding skill points, don't make just mathematically correct decisions ... Call me crazy..but current iteration is achieving all of these things.. It's huge step forward.. of course..I see where are you coming from..you just like to click on these + buttons because you feel you are building your own character. Well..okey..I understand ..but I just think when you will experience freedom of current system, you will understand how stupid and limited D2 system is.



  5. #25
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    Re: Regarding "dumbed down" and "lack of customization".

    One further thought about customization and build variety.


    there is a blue post on the Diablo 3 forums from Bashiok

    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/top...28?page=21#405


    the summary said it all for me

    ---------------
    A Diablo 2 Barbarian will finish Normal difficulty with 20 different skills to choose from.
    A Diablo 3 Barbarian will finish Normal difficulty (level 30, per Bashiok's confirmation) with 59(FIFTY-NINE) different skills to choose from.

    He will continue gaining skills after level 30 all the way up to level 60 at the rate of about 2 new runes to try per level, for another 72(SEVENTY-TWO) skills left to be earned by the end of Normal, or a total of 131 different skills to select by the time he's just about to start Inferno difficulty.
    -------------------

    That seems like a lot of customization, and all with skills that scale with my equipment (which I can swap effortlessly) not assigned points (which I couldn't)



  6. #26
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    Re: Regarding "dumbed down" and "lack of customization".

    Leveling felt very "bleh" to me too...no amount of blather about viable end game builds and rune effects is going to help that. The journey is important too. For me, leveling up was one of the most fun parts of D2. I'm not saying the skill and stats systems were brilliant in Diablo 2, but the feeling of leveling was great. So my disappointment comes from the fact that this was one of the main things I was looking for in Diablo 3, how they manage to improve leveling up so that it combines the great, and important, feel of developing your character and making the skills and stats or whatever system they come up with function better as well. Instead of that, they come up with probably a sensible system, but a very boring one at that, atleast when leveling up. There's just zero feeling.



  7. #27
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    Re: Regarding "dumbed down" and "lack of customization".

    It's funny how much hate D2 gets here nowadays and how bad and horrible mechanics it has.
    What is next, D2 responsible for the holocaust?

    To think this site was once dii.net a new guy to this site would probably never have guessed :P

    OT: Leveling up in D3 is "meh". It's just a flash on your character and then you move on with your day. Then again we only need to level up once/class so that's not a huge problem anyway.



  8. #28
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    Re: Regarding "dumbed down" and "lack of customization".

    The word you are looking for is 'passive' leveling up in D3 is passive, you don't build character, you just level up and get assigned a skill.



  9. #29
    IncGamers Member starrise's Avatar
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    Re: Regarding "dumbed down" and "lack of customization".

    Quote Originally Posted by tyren View Post
    It's funny how much hate D2 gets here nowadays and how bad and horrible mechanics it has.
    What is next, D2 responsible for the holocaust?

    To think this site was once dii.net a new guy to this site would probably never have guessed :P

    OT: Leveling up in D3 is "meh". It's just a flash on your character and then you move on with your day. Then again we only need to level up once/class so that's not a huge problem anyway.
    Just because D2 was the holy grail of ARPGs when it was released, doesn't mean it has to be today. Expectations change, ability and freedom of game design changes, coolness factor changes, and old games age.



  10. #30
    IncGamers Member Raesene's Avatar
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    Re: Regarding "dumbed down" and "lack of customization".

    Saying that the journey is important, and therefore D2 made leveling more exciting just does not compute. Each level in D3 multiplies the number of options you have. D2's leveling was just a linear grind with a few moments of excitement within the first 30 (and none after that).



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