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  1. #1
    IncGamers Member Andy2702's Avatar
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    Which leveling system do you prefer more? D3/WoW's or D2's?

    I'm curious as to who likes what kind of level system. Comparisons and opinions should be made purely on the leveling mechanics, and nothing else. I'll put these in numbered points so it's easier to understand what I mean by the difference.

    D2's:

    1. Level progression scaled astronomically. It almost felt like there was no level cap because level 99 was insanely hard/repetitive to reach. A varied number of different level players running around.
    2. A level 70 and level 85+, despite being in the same area of Hell Act 5, had extremely different items and even ability (due to skill/stat points) that was easy to recognize (level 85+ is OBVIOUSLY stronger than the level 70, but a level 85 and another 85 were pretty balanced more or less).
    3. The game really felt like it started at level 1, even when rushing made levels 1-60 negligible. Balanced amount of content throughout. I realize you guys might debate this with the fact that rushing made the game technically "start" at level 60+ (Hell Act 5), but think about it - a minimal of content was truly RESTRICTED at low levels.
    4. Leveling is boring in the sense that rushes ruined actual leveling.
    5. Character naturally becomes stronger because of skill points and stat points awarded for leveling, as well as scaling items.


    D3's (WoW as well):

    1. Level progression is scaled exponentially, but NOT astronomically . There is a hard level cap, meaning max level is more widely obtainable. Lots of max levels running around as a result.
    2. A level 60 in Diablo 3 (level 85 in WoW) would also have extremely different items, but almost identical skills. It is hard to recognize between a godlike level 60 and a noob level 60 (same with WoW). Being at a max level is nothing to be proud of, as level is not reflection of time played or personal skills.
    3. The game "starts" at max level, where access to a lot of the game's content (and being able to thoroughly enjoy them without dying over and over) opens up from that point on.
    4. Leveling is boring in that it requires grinding and tedious work (at least for WoW, can't say anything about D3. I'm actually looking forward to leveling A LOT, but maybe not the 10th time around).
    5. Character naturally becomes stronger not because of skills, but only because of items scaling (and therefore stats).



    Personally, I like the D2 mechanics better simply because it provides more variability AND consistency at the same time throughout the game. Your thoughts?




  2. #2
    IncGamers Member unmoses's Avatar
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    Re: Which levelling system do you prefer more? D3/WoW's or D2's?

    I'm not sure how you came up with the analysis for certain points

    example: 1.) scaled exponentially? What is scaled exponentially?
    3.) I don't see how the games start any differently? Going through hell diablo 2 is harder than nightmare which is harder than normal.. Ssame for D3 (with inferno obviously)
    4.) I would think they would be the same for both
    5.) If by stronger you mean more healthy, than sure. Otherwise the answer has been items are handling stat points now for d3. They have answered why they did this



  3. #3
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    Re: Which levelling system do you prefer more? D3/WoW's or D2's?

    I don't think WoW's leveling system is the same as D3's, at all :O D3 has freespecs, and WoW doesn't... D3 had a limited number of skill slots, and WoW doesn't... WoW has separate systems for skills and talents, and D3 doesn't... WoW has trees (dependencies) in the talent system, and D3 doesn't... D3 has runes, and WoW doesn't... and so on. Why would you lump these two together?

    And I think there are also plenty of other games with interesting and different systems. Why not throw Skyrim, PoE, SWTOR, and Kingdom of Amalur in there, just to name a few, if we're comparing current games from related but assorted genres

    As for a preference, it all depends on the implementation. I've enjoyed a lot of games with very different leveling systems, and I've also played games with leveling systems that look great on paper but get boring quickly for one or another reason when you actually play them. All the theorycrafting notwithstanding, I am not going to know how D3 stacks up against other games until I have played a couple of characters past 60. (If I stop playing before that, I know it's failed )



  4. #4
    IncGamers Member Andy2702's Avatar
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    Re: Which levelling system do you prefer more? D3/WoW's or D2's?

    Unmoses -
    1. Oh, I meant that it gets harder to level each time you level up, which is basic to any RPG, but D2 had an insane curve to the system.
    3. "Start", meaning full, unrestricted access to all content must start at level 60 for D3, but not necessarily for D2 (such a in the case of rushes). For example, there's no way I'm going to Inferno difficulty EVEN as a level 59 (which is only one level away from max), because level 59 and level 60 are completely different things. Levels 1-59 would be leveling focused, while level 60 is content focused (which is similar to WoW with the raids and what not).
    4. Ehh... yeah.
    5. Yeah, that's why there's less variability without the skills.

    Srikandi -
    Strictly speaking from a leveling mechanics point of view, they have the same foundation and same style. I only wanted to compare Blizzard games because it's more relevant . Skyrim follows D2 model more than the D3 model in terms of leveling. Never played the other games so I'm not too sure :P.




  5. #5
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    Re: Which levelling system do you prefer more? D3/WoW's or D2's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy2702 View Post
    Strictly speaking from a leveling mechanics point of view, they have the same foundation and same style. I only wanted to compare Blizzard games because it's more relevant . Skyrim follows D2 model more than the D3 model in terms of leveling. Never played the other games so I'm not too sure :P.
    See, I totally disagree with this. I think the differences between WoW and D3 that I mentioned are very significant in terms of the leveling experience. (Not to mention the lil fact that WoW is, yknow... an MMO ) And I don't think the differences between D2 and D3 are as significant as you think they are.

    Particularly with respect to your Point 3... my response is "huh"? What is all this content restricted to level 60+ that you are talking about? A couple minor things, yes, but the current version of D2 has that as well.

    Edit: Rereading your post, I guess what you are focusing on is the level cap. OK, in D3 as in WoW, most players are expected to actually reach the level cap and keep playing once their level has been capped, whereas that was not true in D2. *shrug* We know why they did it: you can't keep the endgame challenging if the players keep getting stronger in skills as well as gear while they're in it. Is that going to work? Dunno, have to play it first

    WoW's endgame was... "interesting" because suddenly you need a raid guild and you are spending your playtime playing guild politics instead of playing the game. There is essentially no more questing (no I don't count dailies ) and no more solo play (despite Blizz's best efforts to fake something up for "casuals"); you are in a completely different game. But that does not apply to D3, so again, I don't think they're comparable.


    Last edited by Srikandi; 27-04-2012 at 11:24.

  6. #6
    IncGamers Member Autti's Avatar
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    Re: Which leveling system do you prefer more? D3/WoW's or D2's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy2702 View Post
    2. A level 60 in Diablo 3 (level 85 in WoW) would also have extremely different items, but almost identical skills. It is hard to recognize between a godlike level 60 and a noob level 60 (same with WoW). Being at a max level is nothing to be proud of, as level is not reflection of time played or personal skills.
    Pretty sure you have that one backwards. Why would D3 characters have the same skills when all skills are viable, as opposed to D2 where everyone had the same skills as ~13 skills were viable for endgame.

    Some interesting points, but likely to offer to much flamebait and trolls.



  7. #7
    IncGamers Member Raesene's Avatar
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    Re: Which levelling system do you prefer more? D3/WoW's or D2's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Srikandi View Post
    WoW's endgame was... "interesting" because suddenly you need a raid guild and you are spending your playtime playing guild politics instead of playing the game. There is essentially no more questing (no I don't count dailies ) and no more solo play (despite Blizz's best efforts to fake something up for "casuals"); you are in a completely different game. But that does not apply to D3, so again, I don't think they're comparable.
    Ugh. There is so much truth to this. I like raiding (sometimes), but I would have loved to have something at the same level of WoW raiding that could be done solo, or with a small group of friends. I hated definition of "soloable" as "stupid easy".

    It's one of the reasons I'm looking so forward to Diablo. Large-scale raiding is not even on the table, so the solo/small-group game gets a lot more love.



  8. #8
    IncGamers Member Andy2702's Avatar
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    Re: Which leveling system do you prefer more? D3/WoW's or D2's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Autti View Post
    Pretty sure you have that one backwards. Why would D3 characters have the same skills when all skills are viable, as opposed to D2 where everyone had the same skills as ~13 skills were viable for endgame.

    Some interesting points, but likely to offer to much flamebait and trolls.
    Right, that was because D2 skills were not balanced as well as it could have been, which led to cookie-cutter builds and thus very few viable endgame skills. However, had the skills been balanced, the level mechanics of the game would potentially allow for all skills to be viable, which could have greatly increased build variation.

    For D3, however, everyone of the same class has access to identical skills and runes at level 60, because they're fed to you on a plate as you progress through the game and everyone ends up having essentially the same character at level 60. It's just a matter of what skills you choose to use that allows for variation, because they're so balanced. If I had a level 60 wizard and you had a level 60 wizard, regardless of our play styles, if we swapped characters, we can each still change the character to be the exact same as before the swap (minus items and gender and name). Because you and I pretty much have the same character base without items at max level, I believe the game "starts" from that point on in which we each strive to obtain different items and customize it differently and venture down our own separate paths, while still both being level 60 - hence the difference in skill (player ability) between two max level players in the D3 system I mentioned. How powerful the character is is no longer dependent on his level, but only on items (and that is why I keep drawing parallels to WoW). That's the loss of "variation" and uniqueness due to the leveling system I meant in the original post.

    Basically like Srikandi said, I'm focusing on the level cap and the differing gameplay as a result of it, which he answered nicely.


    Who knows, I'm probably nitpicking as the long wait is making me itch for everything Diablo (including posting here)

    And yeah, I created this thread knowing I'd probably generate a lot of unwarranted heat towards myself. I'm not arguing for or against either game, I'm just stating that I prefer one more than the other, and that overall I'm fine either way.



    Last edited by Andy2702; 27-04-2012 at 12:17. Reason: Trying to be as clear as possible so as to mitigate the amount of flame~ :D

  9. #9
    IncGamers Member Autti's Avatar
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    Re: Which levelling system do you prefer more? D3/WoW's or D2's?

    but D2 has that now with respecs, so isn't your point kinda of moot?

    In fact D3 freespecs means that you can play the game MORE at lower levels because you dont need to save skill points and can make different builds for each level. By that fact i see that you are playing the game MORE up until the level cap than D2 where you just wait to dump your skill points into your build at like level 70, not to mention make a perfect build which means waiting to equip all your items with minimal strength which means waiting to 80.

    I just dont see it your way.

    I think the better argument is that we loose character identity because we can chop and change, but i think we can now "play the game" more.



  10. #10
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    Re: Which levelling system do you prefer more? D3/WoW's or D2's?

    i don't like the idea of the game starting at the level cap, BUT that is more of an overall game design as opposed to a leveling system design and is caused more by the community at large still. Still Diablo 2 really felt like it began at level 24~30, especially since it would be either level 24 or level 30 where you very often got your primary class skill for your build, especially if you are playing by the save all your points until you get YOUR build skill system.

    I've always been critical of games that begin at endgame instead of at "game". In WoW, it really helped that I love 5 man content more than raid content. In Diablo II, it helps immensely that they added the respec system. I really like burning my normal mode respec on wasted leveling points, so a new character doesn't feel like banging my head against the wall.

    I think Diablo III will be the best still, because it seems like the designer designed the game from the standpoint of "some players will finish in normal, some in inferno, and some in places in between". Designing the game with this in mind will make them more mindful of making all levels of play fun, as fewer players will hit a boring hump that makes them want to quit, and those that do quit, can leave without having a bad taste in their mouth. Also, as someone who plans on playing the game a long time, It would be nice to not have a long boring segment of gameplay.

    WoW started out like that, until the community said, "no, game begins at cap". With Cataclysm, it seem Blizzard tried to fix it by making the game more interesting in the early game, did a great job with the story in that regard, but made that early game so mind numbingly easy that it failed on all other levels.




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