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  1. #1
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    Query on Armour and Resistances!

    As my old sergeant-major used to say, ask a stupid question once and be a fool for a day, keep it to yourself and be an idiot forever.

    So, I thought I knew all there was to know about Armour when Defence was removed as an attribute; and even after Intelligence changed from +health from orbs to Resistances I stayed confident.

    And then my knowledge was turned on its head by people posting about Physical Resistance (some of you may know which thread I'm referring to, in the Barbarian forum) and how it was also affected by Intelligence.

    Armour decreases damage from ALL sources. Strength adds to armour.

    Resistances decrease damage from the specific source they resist. Intelligence adds to ALL resistances.

    Can a kind soul here, equipped with the numbers and/or the necessary math and the patience to explain it at high-school level, please tell me: What, if any, are the defensive differences between an increase in Strength and an increase in Intelligence?

    Thank you very much in advance, Hardrock (hehehe) at al.



  2. #2
    IncGamers Member HardRock's Avatar
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    Re: Query on Armour and Resistances!

    You rang?

    Currently, without skill bonuses, there's no difference between Strength and Intelligence if you care only about defense. 100 Strength will provide exactly the same amount of damage reduction or effective HP as 100 Intelligence.

    Of course, a Barb will still prefer STR for the offensive bonus it provides for him or her, just as a WD or a Wizard will want INT. For the Monk and DH, STR equals INT, if we're not considering skills like One With Everything for example.



  3. #3
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    Re: Query on Armour and Resistances!

    Quote Originally Posted by HardRock View Post
    You rang?
    <3

    Quote Originally Posted by HardRock
    Currently, without skill bonuses, there's no difference between Strength and Intelligence if you care only about defense. 100 Strength will provide exactly the same amount of damage reduction or effective HP as 100 Intelligence.

    Of course, a Barb will still prefer STR for the offensive bonus it provides for him or her, just as a WD or a Wizard will want INT. For the Monk and DH, STR equals INT, if we're not considering skills like One With Everything for example.
    Thank you! I was indeed asking where a Dexterity class would want to gear towards after Dex itself.

    I presume that in terms of effective HP, stacking a hypothetical 100 points into Strength or Intelligence is no different from splitting that same amount into Strength and Intelligence?



  4. #4
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    Re: Query on Armour and Resistances!

    Depends on how damage resistance scales.. if it scales linearly then the prioritization of str vs int for monk or DH wont matter... if all that I'm reading is correct.

    Another question... can you dodge any attack? Obviously physical, but what about AoE, DoTs, and other magic attacks?



  5. #5
    IncGamers Member HardRock's Avatar
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    Re: Query on Armour and Resistances!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganoidyn View Post
    Thank you! I was indeed asking where a Dexterity class would want to gear towards after Dex itself.
    I'm glad I could help and you're welcome.

    That's an interesting question. Like I said, our skills will influence our choices in this regard. For example, if you're using the Hard Target rune of Mantra of Evasion then obviously you're better off by stacking STR and Armor in general.

    Also, One With Everything is good way to effectively convert any amount and type of resistance into an amount of INT that will equal resist * 10, assuming that OWE gives us resist all, including physical damage. The tooltip isn't very clear about this, although I think the tooltip for INT also says resistance against all elements, so...

    Without skills though, STR = INT for Monks and Demon Hunters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganoidyn View Post
    I presume that in terms of effective HP, stacking a hypothetical 100 points into Strength or Intelligence is no different from splitting that same amount into Strength and Intelligence?
    That's correct. As far as EHP is concerned: (100 STR + 50 INT) = (50 STR + 100 INT)

    Here are the formulas I use for my calculations. They're relatively old, but as far as I know they're still accurate. All thanks should go to pmpch for these.

    Armor as +DR%: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i...2000%2C+L%3D60
    Armor as +EHP%: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i...5000%2C+L%3D60
    Resists as +DR%: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i...1500%2C+L%3D60
    Resists as +EHP%: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i....500%2C+L%3D60

    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyCowboy View Post
    Depends on how damage resistance scales.. if it scales linearly then the prioritization of str vs int for monk or DH wont matter... if all that I'm reading is correct.
    If you look at STR and INT as DR, then you get diminishing returns. However, if you view them as bonus effective HP (meaning how much longer you'll live against a given amount of incoming damage), which I think is a better way look at them, then they scale linearly. Check out the formulas I posted above.

    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyCowboy View Post
    Another question... can you dodge any attack? Obviously physical, but what about AoE, DoTs, and other magic attacks?
    Good question, here's what I know for a fact.

    You can dodge melee swings, ranged projectiles and ground based AoE for sure and it doesn't matter what type of elemental damage they deal or whether they're spells or not.

    You definitely cannot dodge status effects (for example freeze) from AoE though.

    I don't know if you can dodge status effects from single-target attacks, but most likely you cannot. I also don't know how the dodging of spells like Haunt will work. Can we dodge the whole spell or only individual ticks? Probably the latter, but I don't know.

    Basically damage-wise most likely everything can be dodged. While we're at it I'd also like to mention that blocking works the same way.

    Here's a helpful video Risingred recorded a while ago:





  6. #6
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    Re: Query on Armour and Resistances!

    Are you sure EHP from armor and resistances are additive? I would have guessed multiplicative instead, just like dodge bonus would be multiplicative as well (assuming it adds EHP in the same way). That means 50/50 str/int should better than 100/0 or 0/100 (if my multiplicative assumption is correct), at least from EHP standpoint, as obviously 100/0 str/int would be better for barbs due to the damage boost and likely not a lot less EHP bonus (where "not a lot less" applies when your overall damage reduction values are quite closer to 0% than they are to 100%, which may often/always be the case).




  7. #7
    IncGamers Member HardRock's Avatar
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    Re: Query on Armour and Resistances!

    Hmm, now that I think about it, I'm uncertain. It would make more sense if the DR from STR and INT wouldn't be additive, since otherwise they could become much too powerful. That would of course also mean that EHP won't be additive either. Getting the same amount of STR and INT and increasing them in a 1:1 ratio would result in the highest defense then.

    I didn't actually mean to say before that they're additive, only that 100 STR and 50 INT will provide an equal amount of EHP as 50 STR and 100 INT, which is true in any case unless I'm mistaken. I should have made that more clear.

    If someone knows for sure how the DR from STR and INT stacks, then please don't stay silent.



  8. #8
    IncGamers Member Superstate's Avatar
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    Re: Query on Armour and Resistances!

    Quote Originally Posted by HardRock View Post
    If someone knows for sure how the DR from STR and INT stacks, then please don't stay silent.
    I might have something for this weekend!


    For now though I'll say this:

    It is important to realize that Strength and Intelligence scales linearly with EHP in respect to themselves. I should say that they scale linearly with eachother as well, but the difference is that "the k of the two linear functions aren't necessarily equal". They will work very much like the synergy between increasing crit and strike size, where increasing one stat will improve the value of the other stats relatively. For example, if you're at 1000 intellect and 100 strength, increasing strength by 1 point will likely yield a larger sum of EHP gain than increasing intellect.


    What you'll end up with is a number for a ratio, a theoretical equivalence where adding 1 Strength = 1 Intelligence in terms of EHP gain. This might be at a 1:1 ratio, ie you would aim for having as equal amounts of Intelligence and Strength possible. I haven't looked it up where the ratio will be at, but I figure it might "wobble" a bit between levels, since the functions for calculating the DR is using discrete sums of level (you can't be level 59,7886 for example, or you can be but the game won't make that distinction).


    So on a finishing note, it isn't a certainty by any means that you can shuffle around between Strength and Intelligence however you wish and retain the same level of survivability. There will be tiny, tiny differencies. And when I say tiny I very much mean around a hundreth of a percent different.



  9. #9
    IncGamers Member HardRock's Avatar
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    Re: Query on Armour and Resistances!

    Firefox crashed while I was writing my post and this new one will be much shorter than I originally intended it to be.

    If you look at the links I posted above you'll see that the proportionality of the two linear EHP functions is the same, when we're looking for STR's and INT's EHP value.

    If I understand things correctly, if DR from STR and INT stacks multiplicatively in a way that 40% from both sources would result in 64% final DR (which I think is the most likely possibility), then EHP-wise stacking both in a 1:1 ratio would be the ideal, although stacking only one of them wouldn't be much worse.

    For example, with zero Armor from our gear, 600 STR (600 Armor) equals +20% EHP at level 60, but 300 STR and 300 INT (30 Resist All) would equal 21%. However, since we'll always have at least 2000 Armor at level 60, even with white gear, for a while INT should be slightly more valuable than STR.


    Last edited by HardRock; 27-04-2012 at 06:50.

  10. #10
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    Re: Query on Armour and Resistances!

    That said, additive would not have been too powerful - It would be much weaker than the multiplicative stacking method. Additive means 50/50 is the same as 100/0 or 0/100, while multiplicative means 50/50 is actually better than either of the 3 in "additive mode".

    Of course, I still wonder if any barbarian will care for int or dex, when you can get resistances and dodge from items in possibly higher quantities, and thus items with dex/int will really be items with wasted item budget that you'd only use if you really don't have any better options. I mean, for example, if they want any wizard/wd to ever consider using an item that simply has resistances rather than int, the resistance affix must provide more defense than int, and thus is obviously superior to int for barbs, monks and demon hunters.

    Seems like primary stats will be something you really want on every single item that can have it, and just about any affix will be better than a non-primary-stat affix, which I find a bit annoying since it simply means there will be a lot more items that are simply obvious junk.




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