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  1. #11
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    Re: 3-4 Monks in Inferno. A magical experience!

    this still isnt wow and thus your analogy is void. we dont have 40 people ; we have 4 ; we dont have Boss encounter which take us about 30 minutes to kill ; we dont have tank classes and healer classes, the combat is fluent you dont just stay around watch your rotation timer ; so youll know when to press the next button. 50% dmg reduction is not nigh invurnability ; its 50% dmg reduction ; no more no less how you know 50% dmg reduction deosnt wreck you in 10 instead of 5 seconds anyway ?

    this isnt WoW the dmg is you'll recieve is not supposed to be completely predictable.

    Second ; it wont hurt any builds : again this isnt WoW , you can solo all content ; you'll depend on no one. the Maximum playersize is 4 if i feel like some is a leaching jerk who does nothing but afking around i just leave or start votekick; it will take me like 20 seconds to restart another game. and from what i have seen you even start from your latest checkpoint if you click proceed game (or whatever that button is in english)

    I see where you come from ; that does not mean though that i agree ; its logical that the combined strength of multiple Allies is greater than the parts they are made of ; but that is the case from pretty much all skills which buff / cc / heal / debuff in one kind or the other.

    i just absolutely follow your line of logic or sentiment. It is ok to pile on buffs heals and stuns ? but dmg reduction debuffs are the holy grail of game mechanics ?



  2. #12
    IncGamers Member HardRock's Avatar
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    Re: 3-4 Monks in Inferno. A magical experience!

    I won't be OK with how CCs and heals work either, if they could be used to trivialize the gameplay. I want Inferno to be a real challenge, but I don't see how that will be possible if damage debuffs stack like many people think they do. I guess we'll just have to wait until May 15 to find out.



  3. #13
    IncGamers Member Such Violent Storms's Avatar
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    Re: 3-4 Monks in Inferno. A magical experience!

    Quote Originally Posted by HardRock View Post
    I won't be OK with how CCs and heals work either, if they could be used to trivialize the gameplay. I want Inferno to be a real challenge, but I don't see how that will be possible if damage debuffs stack like many people think they do. I guess we'll just have to wait until May 15 to find out.
    Inferno (high level) monsters could easily have a value that reduces debuff intensity. Similar to how D2 would cut things like Open Wounds by 1/8th or more in PvP, a level 62 monster could reduce all debuffs by some fraction of what they would be on a Normal-mode Fallen.



  4. #14
    IncGamers Member HardRock's Avatar
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    Re: 3-4 Monks in Inferno. A magical experience!

    I didn't discount that possibility. However, Jay said in the past that they aren't fans of diminishing returns in general, because it's a mechanic that's not very visible to players and that there won't be resistance penalties in the higher difficulties like in D2. Granted, he said these things a long time ago and they may have changed their minds. Also, none of it is directly relevant to the topic at hand, but still, I have the feeling that they won't go in the direction you proposed, especially since they already implemented a perfectly good way of handling this problem for movement slowing effects.



  5. #15
    IncGamers Member Such Violent Storms's Avatar
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    Re: 3-4 Monks in Inferno. A magical experience!

    Quote Originally Posted by HardRock View Post
    I didn't discount that possibility. However, Jay said in the past that they aren't fans of diminishing returns in general, because it's a mechanic that's not very visible to players and that there won't be resistance penalties in the higher difficulties like in D2. Granted, he said these things a long time ago and they may have changed their minds. Also, none of it is directly relevant to the topic at hand, but still, I have the feeling that they won't go in the direction you proposed, especially since they already implemented a perfectly good way of handling this problem for movement slowing effects.
    It's not necessarily a diminishing return as it is just increasing monster brawn. Monster health, armor, and damage improves, but it's not diminishing returns if your spell does 300 damage to a Fallen and only 25 to Diablo. So if my debuffs don't work as well against an Inferno rare mob I wouldn't feel bad or anything.

    But what I think will be interesting with monks is not reducing enemy damage, but dodging it all together. Monks can get tons of Dexterity (fist weapons, spirit stones) and have skills that allow a cool +30% dodge right off the bat. It takes a load off of Armor and Resistances when Dodging an attack means 0 damage.



  6. #16
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    Re: 3-4 Monks in Inferno. A magical experience!

    Quote Originally Posted by Such Violent Storms View Post
    But what I think will be interesting with monks is not reducing enemy damage, but dodging it all together. Monks can get tons of Dexterity (fist weapons, spirit stones) and have skills that allow a cool +30% dodge right off the bat. It takes a load off of Armor and Resistances when Dodging an attack means 0 damage.
    The problem with relying on avoiding damage as opposed to reducing it on every hit is that a few unlucky hits in a row that bypass your defenses could outright kill you. Combined with the fact that Monks have a similarly abrupt way of raising their health (Heals), I expect Monk HP bulbs to bob like yo-yos.



  7. #17
    IncGamers Member Such Violent Storms's Avatar
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    Re: 3-4 Monks in Inferno. A magical experience!

    Quote Originally Posted by redrach View Post
    The problem with relying on avoiding damage as opposed to reducing it on every hit is that a few unlucky hits in a row that bypass your defenses could outright kill you. Combined with the fact that Monks have a similarly abrupt way of raising their health (Heals), I expect Monk HP bulbs to bob like yo-yos.
    Yeah, if you only relied on dodging you could get spiked with a few lucky hits and die, so good balance is needed. But just Mantra of Evasion (15%) + Guardian's Path (15%) + massive Dexterity suddenly turns 4 monks into very difficult targets. Combine with an innate 30% damage reduction, heals and protection, and easy access to massive Armor from Seize The Initiative or high Resistances from One With Everything and it's insane.



  8. #18
    IncGamers Member HardRock's Avatar
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    Re: 3-4 Monks in Inferno. A magical experience!

    Indeed, the Monk will be the king of dodging attacks. Right now, 1000 DEX equals 30% Dodge and that won't be that hard to reach at level 60. With Mantra of Evasion and Guardian's Path a Monk could easily maintain 49.4% Dodge ((1 - 0.3) * (1 - 0.15) * (1 - 0.15)) at all times. I'm actually theorycrafting a build at the moment that would turn the huge amounts of Dodge a Monk could amass into offense.



  9. #19
    IncGamers Member Such Violent Storms's Avatar
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    Re: 3-4 Monks in Inferno. A magical experience!

    Quote Originally Posted by HardRock View Post
    Indeed, the Monk will be the king of dodging attacks. Right now, 1000 DEX equals 30% Dodge and that won't be that hard to reach at level 60. With Mantra of Evasion and Guardian's Path a Monk could easily maintain 49.4% Dodge ((1 - 0.3) * (1 - 0.15) * (1 - 0.15)) at all times. I'm actually theorycrafting a build at the moment that would turn the huge amounts of Dodge a Monk could amass into offense.
    Are you sure that's how +% dodge is calculated? I just can't help but think it's simple adding: 30% + 15% + 15% for 60%. It seems wordy, like Fists of Thunder is multiplicative and MoE is additive.

    I've also made a dodge-themed Monk Build, but because the Backlash rune on MoE isn't certain ("has a chance to..."), it's kind of hopeless. It's better to not base a build around dodge and just use CW or WotHF to kill stuff, but I hope it changes. Who knows what the "has a chance to" actually is, but I'd like to see Backlash be at least 70% chance to deal damage, then you could do something like this:

    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculato...XgT!dWX!Zccbba

    The last skill and last passive being variable. The main spender is Mantra of Evasion. The other option is Dashing Strike Blinding Speed as the main spender, but you can't maintain the bonus from Fists of Thunder and it gets all annoying.



  10. #20
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    Re: 3-4 Monks in Inferno. A magical experience!

    Quote Originally Posted by HardRock View Post
    Indeed, the Monk will be the king of dodging attacks. Right now, 1000 DEX equals 30% Dodge and that won't be that hard to reach at level 60. With Mantra of Evasion and Guardian's Path a Monk could easily maintain 49.4% Dodge ((1 - 0.3) * (1 - 0.15) * (1 - 0.15)) at all times. I'm actually theorycrafting a build at the moment that would turn the huge amounts of Dodge a Monk could amass into offense.
    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculato...ifh!dWX!ZccZYc I was working on the same thing, and got something like this, with the possibility of replacing Seize the Initiative with Combination strike if the attacks getting through aren't too worrying. Keeping Sweeping Wind up along with Foresight will help put out steady damage on the enemies hopefully wailing on you in large groups - especially when you bring them in with Cyclone Strike.



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