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  1. #1
    IncGamers Member
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    Customization is - and will remain - the main issue I got with D3

    If you look at my join date you know where I'm coming from. I might be way too old to play games at this point but I got such fond memories of D1 and D2 that I really want D3 to work.

    I can sum up this post in 5 points

    - No free weapon choice
    - No primary attack
    - No attribute choice
    - No access to the build you want untill level 50+
    - No sense of commitment to your build

    I am sure that there are a lot of people out there that could care less about these points. Perhaps people have been spoiled with previous games. But I just can't help feeling that these are some serious let downs.

    No free weapon choice & primary attack
    My first point, why can't a barb use a wand? Why can't a barb use a bow? It certainly can't be his physique. Especially the way the barb is setup right now there are so many options for barbarians to be skill spammers. I could see myself walking around as a Barmage with Wand or Staff that has +xx fury regeneration Magefists, SOJ's and an Arachnids Mesh and bring my enemies to a world of pain spamming skills. It's just such a shame that this option ain't available.

    I know that a Sorc could probably be a melee mage as well but blizzard took away this form of customization by not giving primary attack a slot, and making it obsolete in general. Why? This is something I just don't understand. Why take away the option of throwing with Javalins manually. Why does every attack need to do something special? If you do something over and over again it doesn't become so special anymore. I liked primary attack, I liked that in D2, you had to have some decent gear atleast to do "something awesome"(insert skill) all the time. That this also disallows some form of customization is one unneccesary side effect that I do not expect from a game with this development time.

    No atttribute choice
    I know this has been beaten to death. And when you look at the topics where it has been beaten to death, you'll likely find my posts. Limiting attribute choice is yet another step in limiting customization. Yes, for a certain build there is a definite optimum to be chosen. And as such, you could argue that stat points are a meaningless form of customization. BUT in order to do a variant build you need to alter your stats to be as effective as possible. Sure there are countless of new players that don't know anything about stats. But instead of just taking the option away entirely, the sysem could suggest a good stat allocation.

    No access to the build you want untill level 50+
    This is a big deal for me. In fact, it seriously ruins a large part of the game. In D2, you had your build finished at level 30, as in - you had all the skills. After that, all you were doing is making your build stronger. For some reason, Blizzard got the idea that it is a good idea to limit their users by making skills available near the end of the game. Some builds do not work without a certain rune effect. It is absolutely beyond me why Blizzard took this route. Playing past level 60 might happen. I dislike the idea (in practice, it's also one of the things I dislike about Guild Wars), but why do you not allow your players to enjoy the build they came up with untill the game is almost finished. This is seriously a very bad design choice. It is one thing to give players a sense of accomplishment, but this is taking it a step too far.

    No sense of commitment to your build
    Your skill bar is entirely meaningless. You got all skills and all runes at your disposal at pretty much every point of the game. As such, the mathematically correct thing to do is to make use a build while attacking mobs and switching out these skills when you face a boss. I was facing leoric and cleaving him to death, but all I was doing was cheating myself. There is absolutely no reason to switch out cleave and leap and take other skills to deal with a boss fight. I am not a player that is going to stick to a build because I got a sense of righteousness and the game developpers did not intend the game in a certain way. It is the task of the game developpers to give meaningfull limits to the game (in which meaningful is not taking away bows from Barbarians - totally senseless). The developpers give a clear indication that they do not want you to switch skills all the time, that's why there is a cooldown. But their limitation imposed is completely ineffective. A let down and bad design in my opinion.

    There's actually a lot of things I do like about the game. Like the lore, the way quests are told, the crafting system, the champion packs, the match making system, the abundance of subbosses. But these points above are just so... annoying and unneccesary that I can't help but feel an overall sense of let down.

    /rant




  2. #2
    IncGamers Member
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    Re: Customization is - and will remain - the main issue I got with D3

    I don't really disagree with any of your points but I'm pretty much over them except this one:

    No access to the build you want until level 50+

    That one still really bugs me.



  3. #3
    IncGamers Member
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    Re: Customization is - and will remain - the main issue I got with D3

    Attribute choices are handled through gear and gems, is my understanding, and there's a lot of room for customization from those.

    I think "the build you want" is a moving target for each person, so level 50+ for some, maybe, but not all.

    No sense of commitment is addressed by this: http://www.diablowiki.net/Nephalem_valor



  4. #4
    IncGamers Member Azzure's Avatar
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    Re: Customization is - and will remain - the main issue I got with D3

    nSin not discrediting your post here, but I disagree with the notion that D3 isn't the most customizable RPG in history.

    When you take a detailed look in to the depth of the skill/rune system, how slow weapons / fast weapons, dual wielding, 2h etc plays in to your build choice, you'll then see just how much customization and meaningful choices there are in Diablo 3.



  5. #5
    IncGamers Member
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    Re: Customization is - and will remain - the main issue I got with D3

    @yovargas - actually, I think I dislike that one the most as well. I think that D2 solves it much more elegantly by making it available at level 30.

    @BellaStrenga - I know about the Nephalem Valor. You make a valid point don't get me wrong. But it kicks in at level 60. I got to level 13 exploring everything in ~4 hours. So level 60 means that I'll have spend like, 40 hours (?) in the game without this sense of permance.... I'm a bit annoyed by it.

    I have argued back and forth over attribute choices. I know that attribute choices are in the game as gems as well. But still, that you can't choose them each level is - in my opinion - an unneccesary limitation. Even when there are mathematically correct builds I would have liked the option to venture away from mainstream builds to make a mathematically correct build as a variant build.

    @Azzure weren't all these choices in D2 as well? I mean, if you took a 2H mace you were pretty much assured that you weren't going to hit a certain amount of hits per second. You know what, I hope that this system turns out as deep as you say. But it doesn't neglect what isn't in the game right now.




  6. #6
    IncGamers Member
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    Re: Customization is - and will remain - the main issue I got with D3

    Quote Originally Posted by nSin View Post
    I might be way too old to play games at this point I might be way too old to play games at this point
    There is no such thing!

    Quote Originally Posted by nSin View Post
    My first point, why can't a barb use a wand? Why can't a barb use a bow? It certainly can't be his physique.
    Fat fingers of course.
    I dont really have an issue with barbs not using wands, wands are very much a symbolic caster weapon, but for some weapons it does seem too restrictive, like bows for barbs.

    Basic attack should be back and useful, no doubt. At this point they should just make it into an actual skill with rune choices imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by nSin View Post
    Limiting attribute choice is yet another step in limiting customization. Yes, for a certain build there is a definite optimum to be chosen. And as such, you could argue that stat points are a meaningless form of customization. BUT in order to do a variant build you need to alter your stats to be as effective as possible.
    Is it really much of a change? Instead of placing attribute points through buttons you place them through gear. The difference seems minimal to me.

    My problem with attributes is rather how utterly boring they are. Each class will ever only want two of them. It is a failure when Blizzard cant come up with 4 stats which are somewhat desirable for all classes.

    Imo the 4 attributes should have benefited different weapon types instead of different classes, meaning a barb who wanted big 2 handers would go strenght, a barb who wanted to dual-wield small 1handers went dex, a barb who wanted, for whatever reasons, to use a staff went for int. Etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by nSin View Post
    No access to the build you want untill level 50+
    This is a big deal for me. In fact, it seriously ruins a large part of the game.
    And you are certainly not alone, this is just stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by nSin View Post
    No sense of commitment to your build
    Your skill bar is entirely meaningless. You got all skills and all runes at your disposal at pretty much every point of the game.
    Now this is my biggest issue with the game. By far.
    And it certainly does not seem like Nephalem Valor will do much to improve the situation.
    Unless it takes hours to build up Nephalem Valor, it will be just about useless.



  7. #7
    IncGamers Member
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    Re: Customization is - and will remain - the main issue I got with D3

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadoutMapes View Post
    Is it really much of a change? Instead of placing attribute points through buttons you place them through gear. The difference seems minimal to me.
    Well. It does make sense from their perspective. Because gear can be changed and attribute points are a bit harder. I don't see a reason to entirely leave it out though. There was no harm done by leaving it in. I will go as far as saying that it is minor for me, but I enjoyed having something to tinker with on each level up. It sort of seems like everything is done for you.

    I guess in terms of customization, it could be equal to D2, but in terms of potential it didn't reach what it could have been.

    My problem with attributes is rather how utterly boring they are. Each class will ever only want two of them. It is a failure when Blizzard cant come up with 4 stats which are somewhat desirable for all classes.
    I completely agree here. I see little meaningful choices in stat allocation with their current system.




  8. #8
    IncGamers Member z00t's Avatar
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    Re: Customization is - and will remain - the main issue I got with D3

    Hey nSin read this: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/3811455085

    Quite frankly, he lays out my opinion on these matters far more eloquently and with more insight than I could. I feel a little silly linking this all the time, but honestly, the more people who read it the better. Not everyone may agree, but I'm hoping that at least a few will change their minds after reading this.



  9. #9
    IncGamers Member Apocalypse's Avatar
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    Re: Customization is - and will remain - the main issue I got with D3

    1. does not bother me at all. not sure it makes sense but i dont care. plenty of weapons for me so its whatever

    2. i rather use skills so again this does not bother me

    3. i like it better this way. i see nothing fun about adding 5 attribute points per level. its annoying

    4. agree. it would be nice if you could pick a rune while leveling. an extra benefit of this is as you leveled you would be much more unique. people would be picking different runes at different times so even if you level as a wiz with 3 other wiz even with the same skills you could be different. leave the unlocks alone, just let us pick what rune we take

    5. this is my biggest issue with the game. this is the issue i think will lessen replayability by a lot. really i feel forced to play hardcore because of it

    edit: number 5 actually my second biggest problem. my first is how they built this game to get ported. i much rather they had focused on just the pc and made it for a pc. worry about the stupid consoles later



  10. #10
    IncGamers Member
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    Re: Customization is - and will remain - the main issue I got with D3

    Quote Originally Posted by z00t View Post
    I already read it 4 months ago. I don't know why you would assume I say this without sufficient information. I'm a well informed individual just like yourself.

    He doesn't even touch upon my first point, second point 4th point or 5th point. He does touch upon my second point with the argument that in raw statpoints, DIII > DII. The only thing I can say on this is that raw statpoints are an invalid comparison. It will need to be compared within the scope of the game. And secondly, with attributes at their disposal there was no reason to not include it. Yet they chose not to.

    And if you look at my post, it all has a very close connection to eachother. It is the sum of the parts, not so much the individual points made.

    May I add that I really like the Blacksmith, Jeweler, Auction house and the skills as they are (so not the way they are unlocked). I agree with many things he says. That doesn't mean that there is suddenly customization in the game.




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