Will anyone really use bash/frenzy?

[HardRock]

It's almost impossible to tell how widely used the different generators will be, since their rune effects are so varied. Someone may choose Frenzy solely because of the Triumph effect, when they want any extra heal or Bash for the Punish effect when they want to boost the damage of Earthquake for example.

As for their damage, let's look at the skills from a single target perspective first. I don't care about the base skills, since nobody will use them after the first rune unlocks. My weapon of choice will be a Centurion Spear (with a perfect roll). I assume that none of the skills have an inherent APS bonus and will only calculate Frenzy's DPS with maxed bonuses which is unrealistic.

Base weapon stats: 214-320 damage, 1.2 APS, 320.4 DPS

Bash - Onslaught: 194% bonus damage, 415.2-620.8 damage, 1.2 APS, 621.6 DPS, 7.2 Fury per second
Cleave - Broad Sweep: 156% bonus damage, 333.9-499.2 damage, 1.2 APS, 500 DPS, 6 Fury per second
Frenzy - Maniac: 130% bonus damage, 278.2-416 damage, 2.1 APS, 728.9 DPS, 6.3 Fury per second

Against single targets Bash deals 24.3% more damage than Cleave, while under ideal circumstances Frenzy deals 45.6% more. Bash and Frenzy also have a slight Fury generation advantage, which will mean even more damage over time. Still, if we're looking at them only as a source of damage, things don't look too good for Bash and Frenzy, since many times you'll face hordes of monsters instead of solitary enemies. If target prioritization becomes critical later on their extra single target damage could become really useful though. This also means that Cleave won't be used in PvP.

I won't do calculations about their AoE damage potential, since there are far more variables that I could account for accurately. However, it seems to me that ironically with the Pulverize and Sidearm runes Bash and Frenzy may be a better AoE option if the enemies are in a line formation, which is not that uncommon.

[Smash]

I think Bash / Frenzy will be relevant as you get access to different spenders / other skills. The barb really lacks a solid single target damage skill, I don't really rate Bash in that role but Frenzy is perfect for it. I was thinking the same after playing the beta that cleave is more appropriate but as soon as things start living more than 1 or 2 hits Frenzy and to a lesser extent bash come back into play. I think the biggest problem with cleave is the strength of the first rune, its one of the reasons I moved away from Frenzy in the first place but again it will weaken as mobs begin to live longer / are more balanced health vs damage than the beta.

In beta using Rage spells to clear trash was not effective enough not only because of resource problem but even if you spend all there was alway some group that left because how monsters are spread.

Seismic Slam was fun to use but in beta was far from primary trash cleaner and honestly most of the time i didn't care.

Cleave all the way. All you need was atleast 2 mobs to out-damage bash or frenzy.

I used bash mostly to stunlock tough enemies like unburied or skeleton king or finish them faster before i will take care of trash.

Honestly with revenge in some situation you WANT to ignore trash and bash boss .

Frenzy will be sick in later game once you get Smite rune. Couple that with Wrath of Berserker Thrive on Chaos rune(or insanity rune), weapons master passive, a pair of mighty weapons(duel wield grants +15%AS and 3 fury per attack) and your looking at 215% attack speed with a 20% chance to stun. It will own bosses, theoretically of course.

Isn't Frenzy/Smite same as Bash/Clobber? I mean if you take into consideration +75% AS from frenzy then if i understand correctly probability of stun is same. Difference is Bash is good to go from start.

I won't do calculations about their AoE damage potential, since there are far more variables that I could account for accurately. However, it seems to me that ironically with the Pulverize and Sidearm runes Bash and Frenzy may be a better AoE option if the enemies are in a line formation, which is not that uncommon.

I don't think that Pulverize or Sidearm will get close to Cleave/Rupture or Broad Sweep :/.

P.S. Funny but Cleave/Reaping Swing if basing on what i saw in beta can generate you rage faster than Bash/Instigation :/.

[Crane]

My favorite setup in the beta is frenzy, ground stomp and seismic slam. It may not be quite as fast as cleave, but once frenzy gets going, it's so much more fun than cleave with rupture.

I think frenzy will be very usable later, but you'll need to change your other skills to make it work.

Frenzy
Whirlwind/seismic slam
Ground Stomp/Leap attack with stun
War Cry/Other fury generating skill

1. Ground stomp or leap attack to stun everything so you can get frenzy to max attack speed.
2. War cry then use that fury to whirlwind away if you have massive amounts of creatures

Fury spenders seem more aimed at taking out packs of creatures, and frenzy is so good at taking out single creatures that I think I can make it work. We'll see once the game is released, but if I can make it work, I'm going frenzy all the way.

[HardRock]

I don't think that Pulverize or Sidearm will get close to Cleave/Rupture or Broad Sweep :/.

Rupture only triggers on kills. When monsters can survive a 4-5 hits Pulverize or Sidearm can easily become the better choice. I doubt that this will be an unlikely scenario later in the game.

Broad Sweep is nice, but it's range is nowhere near as good as the one Pulverize has. I assume Sidearm fires a long range projectile as well.

[galzohar]

Fury spenders seem more aimed at taking out packs of creatures, and frenzy is so good at taking out single creatures that I think I can make it work. We'll see once the game is released, but if I can make it work, I'm going frenzy all the way.

But for each cast of a fury spender (well, almost each cast if you count cooldown-based generators), you must cast several fury generators (cleave/bash/frenzy). In AOE situations, having a non-AOE generator will greatly reduce your AOE capabilities. You can't just stack fury on single targets and then spend it on AOE. You must AOE when there are multiple monsters and single target when there are single monsters. Of course, since we can't do both (at least not while still having a reasonably effective build), we have to choose, and the AOE option seems to easily win when you realize how many situations require AOE vs how many require single target. For spenders they're really all AOE, but for generators we have a choice between single target and AOE, and there's really little reason to pick the single target option, when even on bosses you seem to need plenty of AOE.

Pulverize with only 38% damage seems really week to me. Also, 26 yards is not all that long, considering hammer of the ancient's 22 yards effect from Rolling Thunder rune (for judging what 26 yards would be like). To be honest, one of the reasons the monk feels weak in the beta is because his Fists of Thunder rune only gives 35% weapon damage as AOE on every swing (and of course it doesn't help that he can't use the crafted 2h swords).

Basically bash and frenzy seem to lose out on AOE in just about every way, and by AOE I mean 2 monsters... They should have at least made them compete with cleave for direct damage in situations with only 2 monsters, or alternatively give them a fury generation advantage in such a situation.


With everything said, while bash/frenzy do seem to have some interesting options, they just don't seem interesting enough to justify not using cleave - No matter how you look a it, it always seem like there is at least 1 rune option for cleave that will win out.


Don't get me wrong, I love the barbarian and will probably play one as my main/only character. I love the cleave/hammer style. But it would be really nice if there were more styles that were actually powerful so that I have to think whether to actually use cleave as my generator or not...

PvP is a different animal - Obviously cleave will be hard to use effectively there...

[meangreen]

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[galzohar]

Now you're just making up affixes man... D3 at the moment seems to not be very "procful", and probably for a good reason

[meangreen]

And i have no idea what I'm talking about. Reading up on it.

[Arbalest]

Cleave /w rupture + seismic slam clears mobs most efficiently for me. Frenzy seems slower.

Bash /w clobber is my choice for SK over Frenzy due to Stun.

Now that we can't pot, stun seems almost essential for survival

[Smash]

Rupture only triggers on kills. When monsters can survive a 4-5 hits Pulverize or Sidearm can easily become the better choice. I doubt that this will be an unlikely scenario later in the game.

Broad Sweep is nice, but it's range is nowhere near as good as the one Pulverize has. I assume Sidearm fires a long range projectile as well.

Both if understand correctly hit only in line (and sidearm is additionally random ) which means it is very situational. I do not see how they can come even close to cleave.

It will be more like Rupture vs Broad Sweep. Honestly Rupture shouldn't be overlook even if trash take 4-5 swing to kill because once they start dieing... Crom Bless Us All.

To be honest, one of the reasons the monk feels weak in the beta is because his Fists of Thunder rune only gives 35% weapon damage as AOE on every swing (and of course it doesn't help that he can't use the crafted 2h swords).

Err... i only played monk up to maybe lvl 9 but i found Deadly Reach with Piercing Trident to be beast in clearing mobs. Maybe even on pair if not better than Cleave/Rupture. Plus dps from what i saw was same in 1hvs2h so it doesn't matter that much :/.