Will anyone really use bash/frenzy?

[DoxieVon]

"but I'll use fury spenders to deal with AOE".... with hammer

Found your problem, you using hammer as AOE damage... Rend and/or revenge will be all the AOE you will ever need, unless you like earthquake.

[djxput]

The problem with "but I'll use fury spenders to deal with AOE" is that, well, the majority of your damage comes from cleave. You need 4 cleaves per hammer and 6 cleaves per seismic slam, with hammer and seismic dealing a only a bit more damage but on a greater AOE. From limited beta experience, at least, when using a cleave+hammer combo, it just seems like cleave is doing a bigger portion of the work. Ditching cleave means I'm losing a very large portion of my AOE capability, so the single target skills need to make up for it bigtime, and currently they don't seem to be capable of doing that. Not with the very small amount of extra damage and/or effects that they can currently provide.

As for attack speed, I think it's a bad idea to have gear IAS and skill IAS stack additively. Having some skills becoming less and less powerful as you gear up (compared to most other skills) is just bad design. Luckily, most skills seem to be properly design and don't really change their value as your gear changes (or at least they don't scale down compared to the grand majority of skills).

ya I agree - Im a bit dissappointed by the barbs fury spenders - find them quite lackluster - least from what I have seen - I mean hammer of the ancients 20 fury? seismic slam? rend ok decent but not much of an area. Whirlwind is the only decent one IMO - meanwhile most other classes have many good aoe abilities ...

[galzohar]

I can't go so far to call them lackluster, but they're definitely not that amazing. Not because of the skills themselves, but simply because how often you can (not) use them, due to the costs. For the monk you have similar issues, but his generators offer a lot more variety (both in the runes and in the combo system), and he has quite a few utility spenders so his spirit isn't so much about damage (though he does have some damaging spenders, they're not as important). To be honest, some quick math (estimating AOE sizes and factoring them in) can show you that it's not impossible for cleave+berserker rage to out-damage cleave+hammer of the ancients and free up a skill slot at the same time.

Again, it's not that the AOE spenders are bad per-se, but that you just can't cast them enough and thus really need cleave to not only help with AOE but actually do most of the AOE, with the spenders really just being a bonus you can use once every few swings for some extra damage. Going for bash/frenzy will most likely greatly reduce your damage output in most scenarios, and not increase it by all that much in those rare scenarios where they win out.


One thing we don't know yet is how fury regeneration from damage taken works, especially not in the end-game. That may or may not change the situation completely. If we do end up getting a noticeable amount of fury from damage taken we might actually want to use a slow weapon and get to use spenders a lot more often, thus making bash/frenzy as a single target option slightly more viable.

[Smash]

That's what I meant as well, except Pulverize won't hit the primary target for any additional damage. It creates a shockwave, which will hit only the enemies behind the primary target. So against 4 targets it's 150% + 3 * 38% damage.

You really confuse me greatly, i never stated that Pulverize would do any bonus damage on primary target...
Even if enemies would stay in straight line, which will not happen with melee creeps at all and even range creeps likes to walk a lot during combat even then all what you need is slightly improve your position what for barb is not hard at all.
I am sorry but as i previous stated Broad Sweep need just two targets to out-damage your 4 targets Pulverize.

If you let enemies close to you that is. Monks face a similar dilemma with Crippling Wave and Deadly Reach. If you like to use Dashing Strike to jump into the middle of a mob, then you're better off with CW. Otherwise I would go with Deadly Reach.

Did you played Deadly Reach with Piercing Trident? Seriously?
I didn't had lvl 11 monk so i didn't test Crippling Wave but from tooltip it looks like better version of Cleave. Can someone confirm?

You guys create scenarios where Cleave will have a natural advantage and then complain that Pulverize and Sidearm isn't good enough. The point is that you shouldn't play the same way with the different skills and runes.

First, with leap barb has no problem with positioning.
Second, can you create scenario in which Pulverize and Sidearm will be better than Cleave?
Third, when you create this scenarios answer yourself which will happen more often, the ones that favor Pulverize/Sidearm or Cleave?

DoTs don't tick, they deal continuous damage. This damage is represented in fixed 0.5 second ticks to the player. The damage of some DoTs scale with attack speed, but Rend is not one of these DoTs.

Rend mechanic source please, because on official forum i read other claims.

I can't go so far to call them lackluster, but they're definitely not that amazing. Not because of the skills themselves, but simply because how often you can (not) use them, due to the costs. For the monk you have similar issues, but his generators offer a lot more variety (both in the runes and in the combo system), and he has quite a few utility spenders so his spirit isn't so much about damage (though he does have some damaging spenders, they're not as important). To be honest, some quick math (estimating AOE sizes and factoring them in) can show you that it's not impossible for cleave+berserker rage to out-damage cleave+hammer of the ancients and free up a skill slot at the same time.

Again, it's not that the AOE spenders are bad per-se, but that you just can't cast them enough and thus really need cleave to not only help with AOE but actually do most of the AOE, with the spenders really just being a bonus you can use once every few swings for some extra damage. Going for bash/frenzy will most likely greatly reduce your damage output in most scenarios, and not increase it by all that much in those rare scenarios where they win out.


One thing we don't know yet is how fury regeneration from damage taken works, especially not in the end-game. That may or may not change the situation completely. If we do end up getting a noticeable amount of fury from damage taken we might actually want to use a slow weapon and get to use spenders a lot more often, thus making bash/frenzy as a single target option slightly more viable.

I think you get fury % proportional to health % you lost, but it is just what my logic say.
I am interested what rage improve things we will get.
For example how much max fury we will can get from gear in end game.
Because honestly in current form i hate fury mechanics, it leaks too fast, it force you haste play, i needed like 4 mobs pack to fill it just to spent all on next one...
I got impression that WoW version is done better.

[GetMerked]

Wait wait wait... Are people actually complaining about Barb AOE?

[ElementEight]

Wait wait wait... Are people actually complaining about Barb AOE?

It'd be so much easier if the Barb had a dedicated single target Fury dump.

Oh, wait. Hota/Smash.

Problem solved. Use a single target generator, and use aoe spenders. Use an aoe generator, and use Smash for single target.

[galzohar]

Wait wait wait... Are people actually complaining about Barb AOE?

Not really. More like a "nobody will use bash or frenzy because cleave is just flat out better in 99.8% of the situations" kind of complaint. I mean, why make skills nobody will use and call it "customization"? I like the skill system, really, but having skills nobody will use kinda beats the purpose here. I'll still play barb, I like the barb, but I don't see myself using any generator that isn't cleave.

As for fury, if it was %HP lost for %fury gained, it's be messed up as increasing both HP and defenses would reduce fury gained from damage. But then again just about any damage taken -> fury regen they would implement would be messed up in some way. Just look at WoW and how many adjustments were made to rage generation over the years! And to be honest I never fully understood how it worked (didn't play warrior, though I did make sure to learn *most* mechanics for most classes), and how often it got changed didn't really help. In any case, fury generation from damage taken really deserves it's own thread, though so far it seems like nobody has any idea how it works.

[GetMerked]

IDK i find myself loving the concept of frenzy.

[HardRock]

You really confuse me greatly, i never stated that Pulverize would do any bonus damage on primary target...

Sorry, my bad. I must have misread your post in some way.

Even if enemies would stay in straight line, which will not happen with melee creeps at all and even range creeps likes to walk a lot during combat even then all what you need is slightly improve your position what for barb is not hard at all.

Enemies that lined up for a line AoE like Pulverize wasn't that rare in the beta. If you have enough damage, then you can even keep them in line, thanks to hit recovery animations.

I am sorry but as i previous stated Broad Sweep need just two targets to out-damage your 4 targets Pulverize.

Of course, I'm not doubting that. I'm doubting that Broad Sweep and Rupture will be always better. Hitting more targets have other advantages other than damage (and I know I'm going somewhat off-topic here), just like having 2 enemies in melee range instead of 1 can be a disadvantage. I'll say it again, all three skills look equally promising to me.

Did you played Deadly Reach with Piercing Trident? Seriously?

Yep, I frequently switched between it and Cripppling Wave, as I couldn't decide which one I liked more. Because of it's range and the safety that can provide I would probably go with Deadly Reach in the long run, especially in HC.

I didn't had lvl 11 monk so i didn't test Crippling Wave but from tooltip it looks like better version of Cleave. Can someone confirm?

It's a very similar skill. It has a slightly lower damage, but a strong debuff. It's third hit also hits everyone around the Monk, not just the enemies standing in front of him. The base skill is definitely better, but runes complicate things. The runes for Cleave are focused more on damage, while Crippling Wave is better thought of as a debuff if you ask me, with still very good offense.

First, with leap barb has no problem with positioning.

True, but if you always use Leap to position yourself to better utilize Cleave, then you're using 2 skills instead of one. In my experience with the Monk's Deadly Reach, skills like Pulverize won't require as much positioning, which is really counter-intuitive if you compare the shape of the area it can deal damage in to Cleave's, but that was my impression.

Sidearm also doesn't really require positioning, since it's random. Standing relatively close to a mob does help though, but do that and you're golden, no additional movement will be necessary.

Second, can you create scenario in which Pulverize and Sidearm will be better than Cleave?

I already did.

Third, when you create this scenarios answer yourself which will happen more often, the ones that favor Pulverize/Sidearm or Cleave?

Nobody knows this. In the beta, either could have been very useful.

Rend mechanic source please, because on official forum i read other claims.

I'm the only source I know.

Here's what I found during my testing. DoTs with cooldowns (Grasp of the Dead, Earthquake) use your DPS for their damage, so they don't favor either 2H or DW. However spammable DoTs (Rend, Haunt, Exploding Palm) don't scale with APS. This means that if you're dual-welding you should spread them quicker if you want to do comparable damage to two-handers. This is hard to do with Rend, so it heavily favors two-handers, but it's not really a problem with Haunt and Exploding Palm. EP is costly, but it's main damage comes from the explosion, which is based on monster HP and not on your weapons.

I would appreciate it if someone who did similar tests could confirm my findings.

For example how much max fury we will can get from gear in end game.

+45

http://www.d3inferno.com/affixes/MaxFury_10.html

[Felix]

I don't think cleave is a nobrainer. You might find that you are using whirlwind or other AoE, and dealing with trash mobs is easy and cleave is redundant. In that case either of the other 2 builders would be preferable. Kinda depends on what other skills you chose I think.