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  1. #41
    IncGamers Member nulio's Avatar
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    Re: The PvP Thread

    Nagisa, you must join us more often

    (I'll add your characters later)

  2. #42
    IncGamers Member nulio's Avatar
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    Re: The PvP Thread

    Thread updated
    (and shameless bump)

  3. #43
    IncGamers Member Gripphon's Avatar
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    Re: The PvP Thread

    Time to update my characters, I always forget about this.

    HLD:

    Vegeta - Barbarian - BvC
    Grishknakh - Barbarian - Berserker
    Shaella - Sorceress - Blizzard
    Xylene - Sorceress - Fireball
    Alnilam - Necromancer - Poisonmancer
    Odiseuss - Druid - Windy
    Sinn - Assassin - Ghost
    Thaisa - Amazon - Bowazon

    LLD:

    Hercules - Barbarian - WW
    Azura - Assassin - Ghost (Thought it's kicker, but I see people call that build as Ghost)
    Agrona - Amazon - Bowazon
    Celeste - Sorceress - Blizzard
    Seth - Druid - Fury
    Shamash - Druid - Windy (he was Fissure before)

  4. #44
    IncGamers Member Gripphon's Avatar
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    Re: The PvP Thread

    EDITED - I edit this post for those who are lazy to read all, so next to each build I put tier and you can read if you are interested in explanation.

    So we started discussion about tiers in pvp and I hope we can continue it here.
    I heard for different opinions about different builds and different values about them. Let me start about how I see some builds and hopefully tell something about so called "tiers".

    Amazon:

    Bowazon (or to be precise bow-fury hybrid) - Tier 3, can be very powerful
    You definitely need skill to play this thing correctly. She is so called glass cannon, having huge damage output and low hp relying mostly on fast movement and D/A/E backup skills. I value this thing as something rather strong, only if you play her correctly. She is able to deal with nearly anything, but it's rather hard to find something she is really strong against, while finding her weak spots is easy. Definitely not top tier build. With godly equipment she can be stronger than some tier 2 builds, but I'll put her as tier 3 build overall.

    Don't have experience about other amazon builds so I'll leave them out of this for now and let others tell something about them.

    Assassin:

    Trapper - Tier 1
    from what I saw, this thing is among strongest builds for pvp, especially ffa. She is never easy to deal with, have imba stuns, huge range autoaiming traps, has shadow master minion, fade etc etc. Only reliable way to deal with her is to overabsorb her damage I won't consider as legal method of countering something (while absorbing in "normal" amounts is). For my surprise people don't value this build as high as I do, or they usually don't consider her that powerful. Well from all opponents I faced, she was never an easy match. In fact, I'm impressed how balanced she is, having answer to nearly everything and it's hard to exploit her weak spots. For me, definitely top tier pvp build, so tier 1. Still not sure at what place to put her in overall pvp ranking, but top 3 definitely.

    Ghost - Tier 3
    fun to play, insanely strong against some builds, rather weak against others. She is one of most skill intensive builds to play effectively. Just because she is very strong against some characters I would put her as tier 3 build since against some builds her might falls quickly. Definitely not among stronger builds out there, but that depends on what build do you use because despite her weak spots, she can easily be your mortal enemy.

    Kicksin - Tier 4
    she can have quite large damage output, dangerous as one target killer, but lacks mobility attack as whirlwind. I'm not sure how strong she really is, so I'm not sure what tier to put her. She looks a little weaker than Ghost in my opinion, that puts her as tier 4. Strong against certain builds, but very weak against others.

    Other forms of assassin - I'm not familiar with, never saw them. Someone mentioned bowsin, I have no idea what is she like.

    Necromancer:

    Bone necro - Tier 1
    there are two forms, vita and block necro. Don't know who to value more, but vita necro can deal with everything block necro can plus he is stronger against casters, however block necro has much easier time against popular BvCs or bowazons, definitely ghosts. Huge magic damage that is impossible to absorb and nearly impossible to reduce, spirits that follow target around and stun like mad if they hit... oh yes, did I mention his insane range he is known for? All that makes him godly pvp build, but what makes him top tier and probably top 2 pvp character overall is that he practically has no weak spots. Bone necro has answer to everything that comes his way. Only thing I saw that can deal with him relatively successfully is Windy. Most of times he wins ffa matches just like trapper does, and he is definitely challenging to face in 1v1. Tier 1 build, and I would probably vote for him as strongest pvp build of all if we would have that kind of voting. Unless someone convince me that I'm wrong.

    Poison necro - Tier 3, can be stronger than that
    I like this thing, most people hate it cause of Lower Resist screwing their resists upside down. Still not sure how to value this build, I rarely saw anything beside my own necro cause they are rather rare in pvp scene. Again there are 2 builds for this one, block and vita. Block is obvious way to go with him, but personally I like vita better and consider him stronger than block variant. Sure, block variant is insanely strong against BvC (in fact, I could toy with them despite the fact I find in some barb guides saying that poison necro should be a joke to deal with. I saw the opposite) and will have much easier time against bowazon. Vita necro is still strong to deal with BvC, but will have hard time with bowazon. Most other things vita is better against, at least I see it that way. I would put him as tier 3 because it's nearly impossible to stack him and poison resistance is often overlooked since rare characters use that type of damage. Plus his damage is very strong with Death's Web. Tier 3 because he requires skill to play effectively and Poison Novas are not easy to drop on opponent unless he comes to you. But once you drop Nova, it WILL hurt no matter who you fighting. Not bad build after all. Despite I put him tier 3, he is potentially very dangerous.

    Summoner necro - Tier 5
    leave this thing to PvM. I won't comment his pvp usefulness since I have no clue about it, but it surely looks like a joke to deal with. :P

    Barbarian:

    BvC - Tier 2, in some cases tier 1
    Most popular barb build, definitely. Very skill intensive to play effectively, it's much easier to suck with barb than to play it well. This is my favorite class overall and my favorite pvp build overall, spent most time playing him and against nearly everything out there. Where to start. Since eth bugging is allowed, barbs damage output is just insane, and is impossible to absorb, just to reduce. 4 frame attack can easily lock opponent on a short time. Tons of life, tons of resists. This thing is definitely powerful pvp killing machine. However I saw people disagree about how strong he really is. BvCs main problem are blocking opponents. Block cripples his damage greatly, so anything with block can deal with BvC. Even some vita opponents can deal with BvC, namely vita bone necro or vita poison necro. Probably vita Windy stand a chance cause of summons? But lets see blocking opponents. Block bone necro and poison necro sometimes laugh at BvC, block Windy has advantage over BvC IMO from my experience or are 50/50 at best, paladins have advantage over BvC no matter what build, I faced blocking ES sorc and she was nearly impossible to kill but no one use them anyway. Overall, BvCs are feared with reason, but they are just not invincible and have weak spots, but good thing is they can deal with everything on one way or another. Not entirely sure where to put barb, I have reasons to put him into tier 1 cause he is strong, but also tier 2 cause of his flaws. One thing is for sure, if you play BvC like a pro, he will be tier 1 and one of strongest characters, and if not, then tier 2 just because he is very skill intensive. I met excellent BvC players, but none of them convinced me that he is tier 1 material. My final decision is to put him in tier 2. But I know some people consider him top 3 pvp build and someone might be surprised how can I put BvC as tier 2. Give your reasons ofc, I gave mine :P

    Singer - Tier 5
    Not sure about this thing, but he surely look like a joke rather than a challenge. High survivability, but weak attack that relies on locking opponent. I would put him at lowest tier, tier 5, but waiting to read others opinions about him and if someone actually saw this thing in action. Actually someone did and he told me this thing sucks big time.

    Wolfbarb - Tier 5
    No teleport, huge life, good survivability, it's hard to deal with teleporting characters and extremely hard against teleporting characters with range attacks. He waits for opponent to make mistake. Actually rather several mistakes. Tier 5.

    BvA - Tier 2
    I consider BvC to be better build overall, this is more specific. Tier 2 as BvC.

    Sorceress:

    There are two kind of sorceress, ES and non-ES. It seems to me like no one even bothers to make non-ES sorc. They are right, you must have really strong equipment to raise her survivability to higher levels. But every non-ES build has it's advantages, namely damage output which can be much higher than in ES case, but with much lower survivability.

    Blizzard - Tier 2
    Very hard to stack resistances for her, and she can 1 hit kill some characters. ES build can have like 8500 damage, that is enough to 1 hit kill 2833 HP target. Very strong indeed, but she can't 1 hit kill many many things and there is large difference between 1 hit kill and 2 hit kill. Her survivability is great as ES sorc, ofc. Non-ES blizzard sorc can easily have up to 14000 damage, that is enough to 1 hit kill anything with less than 4650 life. Now this is real 1 hit killer out there. Problem is her survivability that is much worse than in ES case, but can still be good enough to deal with everything, especially if we consider the amount of targets she can easily 1 shot. Both sorcs I would put as tier 2. Very strong, very annoying, but you need to land that blizzard which is not easy to do.

    Fireball - Tier 1/Tier 2
    200 fcr fireball ES sorc, now that is beast to deal with. She is very strong and sometimes very hard to kill. In ffa she is among strongest builds out there cause of her insane range she has. In 1v1 she is not that strong as in ffa, but still strong enough. Again, ES and non-ES variants. Unlike blizzard sorc, this one non-ES build can have great survivability. Mine has 3700 HP with below average lifer skillers, 4300 if we consider oak I summon, and huge around 900 pvp damage fireball which ES build cannot have. Problem is that her damage is so strong people usually tend to absorb her cause she is too strong otherwise. What tier? I would put her in Tier 1 cause of her ffa power, but only if you don't absorb her that is which is, luckily for her, harder to do for ffa. With any kind of absorb her power diminishes quickly (basically, with any character I can put absorb ring on I can tank her like mad), and I'm not talking about overabsorbing. 1v1 tier is 2 for her for that reason, so overall between tiers 1-2 depending on gametype we are playing.

    Lightning - Tier 2 (?)
    Don't have much experience here, I played maybe few times against her. Again, ES and non-ES builds, non-ES can have huge damage, ES has survivabiliy etc etc. Really don't know to compare her to blizzard sorc, obviously she is not tier 1 build, perhaps tier 2 then. Maybe. Well some of you have her so write something about how strong she is. Like fireball sorc, she looks strong for ffa and weaker for 1v1.

    Frozen Orb - Tier 3
    I never considered those sorcs strong, rather annoying. It's hard to avoid her damage fragments, but good thing is her damage is rather low compared to blizzard friend. Like in blizzard case, it's hard to stack enough resistances, but unlike blizzard, this thing cant 1 hit kill and you can easily deal with her with anything that can use ravenfrosts. Again, in ffa she looks ok, in 1v1 she looks rather weak. Overall, I would put her in tier 3.

    Druid:

    Wind - Tier 1
    Tornados are just crazy. Huge damage, even better they are physical type, stuns like mad. This thing is among strongest builds in both ffa and 1v1. He can kill you in a second if you don't watch it, his HP is huge cause of oak, minion stack makes this thing hard to hit for many builds, cyclone armor for additional protection. He is very strong against nearly anything and weak against maybe few builds, not sure who else except Trapper can easily deal with him. Windy players, have your word here. Obviously, I put him in tier 1.

    Rabies - Tier 4, Tier 3 with godly equipment
    There was discussion here. Well, he is walking without teleport, crazy survivability and 1 hit kill attack. Well I don't know do you actually need excellent equipment to have 1 hit kill attack against 90% builds or is it easily achievable. Frozen, you have a word here. He is obvious underdog in many matches, simply waiting for opponent to make mistake. You must deal with him patiently or you will fail. I thought of it as tier 5, but that 1 hit kill attack is very powerful if you manage to drop it. So tier 4. Obviously, sick equipment can make this thing tankish as mountain and really annoying to deal with cause he simply won't die. Sick equipment means this could potentialy be tier 3, but really, no better than that. He is still walking dog that has to attack on melee and he has hard time to infect someone with rabies. Melee builds have to come close and will get infected, but main goal for druid is to survive then, and there is good chance he will be left with low HP after that battle ends which makes him easy target for anyone else in ffa.

    Fissure - Tier 4
    Hmmm no, just no. He is not any good. Okay, he can be potentially dangerous, but usualy his damage is not high enough to be serious threat on the field. He comes with grizzly in package, that can be good combo if pulled correctly. Problem is fissure is nowhere strong as blizzard and teleporting characters take very low damage from it. Tier 4 at best.

    Fury druid/mauler etc. - Tier 5
    Walking animals that have hard time to land hit on opponent and they have to hit probably more than once. Tier 5 all of them.

    Shockwave/summoner
    - don't know
    I saw guide for this thing, but he doesn't seem strong to me. Don't know what to say about him so I'll skip this one.

    Paladin:

    I would rather skip this class cause my knowledge about them is limited. But ok, lets see what do we have here.

    Hammerdin - Tier 2
    Who plays pure hammerdins? Huge damage hammers that are impossible to absorb, every hammer will hurt, but it's not easy to lead someone into hammer field. What can hammerdin actually do except charging/teleporting around setting up hammer field around target and hope that someone get hit? Not much. Tier 2 I would say, hammers still hurt.

    Mage - Tier 2
    More dangerous than pure hammerdin, and annoying too. Hammers are strong, foh can hurt... Like any pala around there, max block, max resists, perhaps 5k life... Tier 2.

    Smiter - Not sure, Tier 2/3, probably 3 (?)
    Not sure, really. Never dueled one that has Enigma. Saw on videos they can pack quite a punch, but not much more than that. Don't know what tier to put him.

    Liberator - Tier 2, can be very strong
    From what I see, this is hardest build to master, most skill intensive of all. Has change, hammers, can pack good smite. I never ever saw good liberator, people usualy suck with them. Look like to me they can deal with anything out there, they are definitely strong, but very skill intensive to play properly. Perhaps some godly liberator player can fit into tier 1 among strongest builds out there, just like in case of BvC, but average liberator player - tier 2.


    Conclusion. Well I named my top tiers and lower tiers. If I must to sum it up, then top 3 would look like this, more or less in that exact order:

    1. Bone necro
    2. Trapper
    3. Wind druid

    But yes, like I said, not all people value Boner and Trapper this high as I do. Some consider fireball sorc as top 1 build, perhaps some consider BvC to be there or top 2 maybe. I don't see how is fireball sorc better than any of these, same goes for BvC which needs godly player to fit there. But again, what if that same godly player plays with let's say Wind druid? Or Trapper. Those are mine top 3 following up with BvC and fireball sorc. But important thing to say is we could watch ffa and 1v1 sepparatedly. That could rise rank of fireball sorc in one case and of BvC in other.

    Okay, enough writing from me. I hope someone else is willing to share their opinion about all this.
    Last edited by Gripphon; 13-05-2013 at 12:39.

  5. #45
    IncGamers Member NagisaFurukawa's Avatar
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    Re: The PvP Thread

    200 ES besto. Huge damage, almost unkillable if defensive enough with fastest tele and infinite mana.

  6. #46
    IncGamers Member Gripphon's Avatar
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    Re: The PvP Thread

    What about your top 3?

  7. #47
    IncGamers Member NagisaFurukawa's Avatar
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    Re: The PvP Thread

    1) 200 FCR ES/Fire
    2) Trapper
    3) Windy

    200 FCR outspeeds everything else, so you usually won't be caught if you play very defensively. Along with infinite mana, 100% spammable attack (2.5 mana Fire Bolt?), 95 ES, and even a little replenish from CTA side, you can turtle away anything's potions/arrows/willpower eventually, or even hit the lottery with random Meteor.

    Honestly, I retired my 105 ES/block variant because it was just stupidly OP, and that was without even a full set of skill charms.

    (By the way, summoner is actually not too bad. I can't remember who brought one, but while it dies pretty easily, it also hits really hard.)

  8. #48
    IncGamers Member frozzzen's Avatar
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    Re: The PvP Thread

    Every build can be strong if you just keep 2 screens away/extreme turtle mode. Even Hammerdin can spam hammers and flee from you whenever you enter his screen. I just didn't play with 200 es fire or vs one for quite some time except vs col's 200 es fire but it's not 95% ES build, managed to take her down with both my trapper and windy for couple times over in FFA, but you were there to see it I think). It's not as broken as as Sapphire but it's same build more or less. One namelock and they are done, both with windy or trapper.

    I'm rather surprised you didn't mention bone necromancer in top tier. Certainly better than wind druid imo. Even if he isn't better in head to head matchup vs windy he is still strong vs absolutely everything but ES sorcs. And windy is also doable if you use enough teeth. Low range kills windy from top tier. Also SP pvp rules ban recasting of cyclone armor so it takes one of big advantages of windy in FFA to counter many threats. Imo, he would be tier 1 if recasting of armor would be allowed.

    I'll make lollist soonish. Have to think over some things.

  9. #49
    IncGamers Member Gripphon's Avatar
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    Re: The PvP Thread

    @ Nagisa
    I understand reason behind putting 200 ES sorc on first place. It's similar to LLD healing paladin which can simply charge out of map to fully regen and then return to fight. Basically, you can't kill him. But where are the limits of fair play there? Someone can simply teleport a mile away, regen to full mana and return to battle like a new. Or someone can play sooo defensively he never come even near your screen and shots from a mile away at you. That way she can outlast anything and will score a hit eventually. But that is really bad for a duel. Only way to fight back is to run away from her and wait her to come near you. If she don't want to, then run again and still wait. If someone would play so defensively against me, I would definitely troll him running away from him instead. So if he wants to fight, come close to me. If not, lets have 10 minute duel. I would watch not to use too much mana, just teleport and run away from her in circles. What then? :P
    No, I don't like too defensive play (or too passive). If someone wants to run away, I would wait him, why to chase him. He will eventually get aggressive cause I surely wont lose mana to chase him around. Unless he hopes to hit me with fireball from screen away somehow.

    But if you don't play this annoying style, then she can die. Luckily, I didn't see very defensive player with 200 ES sorc yet, only for a moment some running cold sorc. Yes, I waited her with barb in two duels. Run if you want, I don't care. You won't hit me either. :P

  10. #50
    IncGamers Member colony's Avatar
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    Re: The PvP Thread

    There's a significant difference between the best builds for 1v1 and for FFA.

    If we're talking about a tournament setting, where winning matters and people will use all the absorb they're allowed, then elemental builds are all at a massive disadvantage compared to physical and magic damage. Dual Wisps, TGods, Hotspurs and Ravens are just very effective. Bone necros, BvCs, ghosts and wind druids are all at the top, but the problem is that they all have weaknesses. Bone necros should lose to a good sorc with a strong ES almost every time, wind druids have a lot of difficulty with trappers, BvCs are difficult to play well and ghosts have massive issues with barbs and paladins. BvCs are generally put near the top of the list as (in theory at least) they can beat anything except a BvB reliably.

    For FFA elemental builds tend to work better than in 1v1 as it's more difficult to negate multiple elements than a single element. It's also far more volatile and normally heavily favours more defensive builds with fewer gear switches to make, such as bone necros and sorcs. Hammerdins and paladin hybrids generally actually do quite well, particularly if they can desynch properly, simply because they take so long to kill and each hit they land does so much damage.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by frozzzen View Post
    Every build can be strong if you just keep 2 screens away/extreme turtle mode. Even Hammerdin can spam hammers and flee from you whenever you enter his screen. I just didn't play with 200 es fire or vs one for quite some time except vs col's 200 es fire but it's not 95% ES build, managed to take her down with both my trapper and windy for couple times over in FFA, but you were there to see it I think). It's not as broken as as Sapphire but it's same build more or less. One namelock and they are done, both with windy or trapper.
    It's not even an 80% ES, simply an ES Memory and Ormus, think it works out around 76-78% as I hate wasting time pre-buffing. Anyway, if a 200FCR 95% ES sorc wants to play silly buggers, that's what OW stacking is for.

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