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  1. #11
    IncGamers Member Torr's Avatar
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    Re: Blizzard rushed Monk's development

    Quote Originally Posted by Chimera View Post
    The monk has potential to be incredible with a few simple changes. My biggest concern about the monk is the combo system and how restrictive it is. For almost any testable spirit spender you can't do generator lvl 1 > spirit spender -> generator lvl 2 since the animations are to long. My suggestions allow this simple sequence to be possible as well as more elaborate ones. I also have a few ideas on how the dash could be more useful and interesting. In the linked thread I go into great detail on how the monk could be improved. In the current form I'll probably pass on D3.

    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4079621943


    I don't like the idea of a delay after Dashing Strike, because the whole point of the 1 second root (I thought) was to give us a chance to land a few quick combinations on a ranged opponent before they attempt to kite. I haven't payed as much attention to it as I have been trying out different classes lately to get a feel for what each one does, but I don't like the idea of that at all. So I'm totally with you there.

    As for the generator>spender>generator mechanic, I always thought it was a deliberate design decision by Blizzard. From the beginning, I never thought animation cancelling would make it to release. I think they are saying "if you want the third part of the generator combo, then you have to be committed to it"; in other words, generator>generator>generator is the main way to get the third hit payoff. I do believe speed of weapons and IAS affect the speed of your animations, so that may be one way to get around it.

    I guess in the end there are 2 ways to look at it. You look at it as a bad design decision, that they should give advanced players more freedom to either cancel animations or avoid animation delay through some other means (other than attack speed). The other side they may be looking at, is that their way forces a player to make some tough pro-con decisions about combat: Do you commit to the generator, or do you break it up with a spender? Is there an attack speed breakpoint where you can continue a generator chain after a spender? Does blizzard even want this to be possible?

    I'm not against your ideas because they could add an interesting dynamic to the monk, but I'm not sure it's what Blizz wants. I certainly wouldn't pass on D3 because of this if I were you... though that's your decision.


    Last edited by Torr; 15-04-2012 at 12:40.

  2. #12
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    Re: Blizzard rushed Monk's development

    I doubt the Monk was anymore "rushed" than the other classes, they just seemed to have taken a different approach with him. Whatever the case, gotta agree that this left him feeling screwed on both skill-quantity and rune-creativity. Also, the 6-skill limit (which is too low, IMO) made the idea of true multi-skill combos very impractical, unfortunately.



  3. #13
    IncGamers Member z00t's Avatar
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    Re: Blizzard rushed Monk's development

    Quote Originally Posted by Torr View Post
    I don't like the idea of a delay after Dashing Strike, because the whole point of the 1 second root (I thought) was to give us a chance to land a few quick combinations on a ranged opponent before they attempt to kite. I
    I'm not the fan of the delay as well, because I am essentially rooting MYSELF after using Dashing Strike, which is a noticeable weakness.

    Honestly, I think that the delay was put in there for PvP reasons. Skills like the Wizard's teleport has a cooldown, but Dashing Strike is limited only by your Spirit. And if you have that Rune which reduces the spirit cost to 10, and that passive which increases your total Spirit to 200, you could be rooting multiple opponents for a total of 20 seconds :P.

    And in PvM, the self-root is a small price to pay for the skill's power . Plus, it makes Tempest Rush more attractive in certain situations.



  4. #14
    IncGamers Member cozmiccc's Avatar
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    Re: Blizzard rushed Monk's development

    I wonder if it's really that HARD to add another one or two skills for Monk, at least bring it closer to other classes' average especially considering that we have 4 redundant mantra skills that can't be taken together.

    I remember reading from Flux report where he played a game build, in it Monk was the only class with no rune skills implemented so he get his number inflated to compensate. To me that's enough evidence that Monk was developed last and likely received the worst rushed treatment as Blizzard need to lock down design as soon as possible.

    From that story my feeling is that we're going to have Monk that's competitive as he get favourable number and Blizzard's excellent balancing treatment. But the downside is Monk has less diversity and rune varieties, pretty much a simple and effective style.



  5. #15
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    Re: Blizzard rushed Monk's development

    Quote Originally Posted by Chimera View Post
    The monk has potential to be incredible with a few simple changes. My biggest concern about the monk is the combo system and how restrictive it is.
    i agree. overall, i think melee combat looks pretty uninteresting and repetitive. i think Blizz missed out on an opportunity to improve it. although, i think it needs just a little more polish. Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning is a game that has some interesting combat ideas.
    <****** class="restrain" title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/IU4_FKd8uy0?wmode=opaque" frameborder="0">



  6. #16
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    Re: Blizzard rushed Monk's development

    Torr: That is a fair assessment. However, the Diablo team said for quite some time that they want to encourage skill use. They didn't want Diablo 3 to have a similar skill system as Diablo 2 where you used essentially one skill to do everything (orb sorc, smiter, whirl wind, lightning javazon, etc...). I interpreted this message as they wanted all skills to be viable in theory and the user to use a variety of skills in each encounter. If Blizzard did intend for the combo system to only refer spirit generators, then it would seem they are going against what they originally wanted. The current system discourages the mix of generators and spirit spenders which is interesting since you need spirit to use the spenders. I might still consider getting D3, but unlikely at launch. Most of my enjoyment from the diablo series can from dueling(not griefing).

    Compare the feel of the 2009 monk footage to the current released promotional video. The old footage looks much faster and smoother to me. Even the quantity of enemies looks better.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31VpcWV2R9E (2009 footage)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVPakGBUKEQ (old footage, but current promotional video)

    In a sense the game has some animation canceling. If you have the beta equip fist of thunder and lashing tail kick. Find a unburied(or any larger monster that isn't a boss) if you time the unburied's attack correctly you will knock it back slightly and interrupt the monsters attack. This also works with stuns. Once you get the cadence down you can easily do 1 or 2 strikes with fist of thunder and follow with the kick creating a loop until your spirit is depleted or the monster is out of range.

    Mr Punk: I haven't heard of that game, but it does look like combos are interesting. Another combo system that is interesting is the combo system in magicka. In magicka you create your own spells as well as use selected sequences to create powerful magicks.



  7. #17
    IncGamers Member Torr's Avatar
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    Re: Blizzard rushed Monk's development

    I don't want this to be a "one skill to do everything" game any more than you do. I just think that there may be a big difference between what we see now in the beta and our level 60 monk. What I'm hoping is that with leveling, better, faster weapons with IAS, and movement speed item buffs at end game will make our monk look more like your old footage in the end.

    As for the animation cancelling, I may be misunderstanding you but are you talking about cancelling the animations of others? Because I fully expect to be able to interrupt animations, and for others to interrupt my animations. I was mainly referring to having the ability to interrupt our own animations (to get to the next part of the chain or a spender), which I'm not expecting.

    I feel like the 2009 footage was staged a bit (powerful monk versus weaker enemies), but I do get what you are trying to say about the monk maybe losing it's way thematically and getting pushed out the door. I don't want to sound like the fanboy always defending Blizzard... I guess I'm just trying to get across why I personally still feel like the game has alot of promise and still look forward to it.



  8. #18
    IncGamers Member lolskate's Avatar
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    Re: Blizzard rushed Monk's development

    What I found to be the biggest problem with monk is that almost all of his runeskills effects are boring and uninspired.... "What's that? +10 spirit when critical? lower spirit cost? increase dodge chance for no reason?" yawnn.... And the skill functionality doesn't change at all. Why can't we have it like WD where his rune can turn random frog swarm to a rain of toad or turn a zombie charger to zombie bear stampede...

    Also we know that on one of the tradeshow demo Monk was the only one without runes effect implemented. It's pretty clear that Blizzard did Monk's rune last and rushed through it to meet the deadline. Sad but true... :(
    Initially my first character was going to be a monk but following some in depth diablo 'research' this is no longer the case. I love the concept of the class: Martial artist with combos sounds awesome on paper but to me the implementation appears to fall short of awesomeness.

    Having looked extensively at all the classes I would have to agree that the monk seems rushed: He has fewer active and passive skills, comparatively bland runes, clunky unpolished weapon animation (weapons teleporting between back and hands) and whereas all other classes have interesting and fun high level skills, monks get four mantras that are nothing more than buffs.

    So now I will likely be rolling wizard, demon hunter, barbarian, monk and lastly witch doctor.



  9. #19
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    Re: Blizzard rushed Monk's development

    well, monk has no wep animation. broken/glitched spells, weird design (the only class without "powerup" cooldown), and the only class with all non-scaling heal. And it wasn't until very recently Blizzard decides monk's spells are overlapping and lacking senders that they scrap exploding palm and SW and put them as senders

    Monk also have very boring mantras, with a very boring activating effects. They should've been more imaginative with mantras and its activating abilities, instead of refreshing only double mantra's effect.

    They could've make it so refreshing mantra fires holybolt in all direction, summons a guardian, meditates monks to drastically increase healing but unable to move/attack etc... Cause right now mantra are really just nice passives

    It feels like Blizzard just don't know what to do with monk.



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