12 years and the end game is still not improved

[Wildmoon]

The main problem with D3 is that it is not Blizzard North which is responsible for it. The new team is doing their best, but IMO, they are not doing well enough. Their ideas are trite and their execution reeks of WoW, not D2. The game will sell, but it is not the sequel to my beloved D2:LoD, which I want to play.

I am glad that it's Blizzard Irvine that is developing D3. BN has dissappointed me so many times after they left Blizzard(Hellgate,TL).

[yovargas]

I am glad that it's Blizzard Irvine that is developing D3. BN has dissappointed me so many times after they left Blizzard(Hellgate,TL).

They disappointed me a buncha times before they left too. (D2 so broken!)

[Buu]

Lots and lots of people who could not respond objectively to my original post

Challenge accepted! Though I'm not sure how an objective response can be made to a subjective post. Oh well, here it goes.

I have to say I am having a hard time viewing this as anything other than Diablo 2's next expansion with a technology upgrade.

Having played the beta, I cannot disagree more. It still feels like a Diablo game, but without simply copying the older games system. They did away with the skill point system, which caused point hoarding and

I went through the beta on each character and my first thoughts were: "cool graphics, nice looking skills, but still feels like the D2 classes". Really very little changed with them despite what people think - the only real difference is the interface affecting skills and runes.

I can't sit here and tell you "No, how you felt is wrong", I can tell you that the only two classes that felt like rehashed D2 characters to me were the Barb and Wizard. While there are undeniable similarities between some of the other characters and the D2 characters, they didn't feel re-skinned.

Fast forward to D3 and immediately you can see that first of all, the level cap is very reachable. So you can take out any notion of ladder chasing where you're scrimping out scraps of XP to hit the next level. Not only does Softcore mode literally become ONLY ABOUT ITEMS. I agree that xp loss is a terrible idea but really, if the level cap is so achievable, you mean to tell me, that items alone is an acceptable end game?

In D2, I stopped caring about level around lvl 80. After that it faded to the background, replace by the item hunt. With D3, the level cap is supposed to be reachable. It is no longer the final stepping stone of a character. With an 'easily' obtainable level cap, Blizzard can create a 'reward' for getting to that point. As of now, that reward is Inferno which contains the best items and harder monsters (min monster lvl is 61). Now players won't out-level content.

Even Hardcore mode you can see that you will easily hit level cap quickly, presumably in nightmare mode.

Blizz has estimated that most people will hit 60 around the end of Hell, not Nightmare. Sure, some people will sit back to outlevel the content so it's easier, but not all.

That really leaves one thing: trying to progress as far as you can in Hell or Inferno. Except its hard to see the point in that because you're not progressing your character at all, you're just farming up more equipment to handle content you've beaten twice and now have to beat 2 more times?

You are still gaining runes through to level 60. And even in D2, the main purpose of continuing to play was items once you got to 80-85 (for me and the people I played with). After that point, the extra skill point + stats just didn't do much for my feeling of progression. As for Hardcore, I would imagine the main drive is getting to Inferno and beating it. Then doing it again until it becomes easy. Then do it on a different character.

The blues say that content repetition is not what causes boredom - not progressing your character is. Well I think that hitting level 60 and doing nothing but upgrading your items in endless content repetition IS THE SAME as not progressing your character but lets say he's not splitting hairs. I disagree with the statement because there is a mountain of evidence suggesting otherwise that repeating content again and again bores people to tears. D2LOD showed this, WOW has absolutely shown this and i could go on but ill limit it to just related examples.

I think what causes boredom is not simply doing the same thing over and over again. It becomes boredom when it stops being fun. If, when you hit 60, Inferno is a blast to play, I'd enjoy running through that over and over again. For me, D2 was like a treasure hunt. With D3, hopefully (And I have faith that it will) Inferno will provide a challenge to complete that hunt.

Who enjoyed bloody foothills farming and Baal runs? People liked progressing in WOW up until it became farm content and even then, the main enjoyment was the social aspect - not the content itself. Once it became farm, people got bored and realized they were spending 5 hours a day doing the same thing they've been doing for the last 3 months. But at least in an MMO you can count on another content patch one day. With D3 what you get, is what you get until an expansion is released.

Different strokes for different folks. Those who liked the farming to find the ultimate piece of gear kept playing. Those who didn't stopped (unless they were in the social aspect of it). Why did you continue to play D2 (non LOD since you state you played for ~ 2 days)?

But you look at the gameplay and their solution for end game is a 4th "epic" difficulty level? Please. That screams pointless. People will maybe make it through Hell, they'll reach Inferno, they'll break their heads against it and they'll say "WHY AM I WASTING MY LIFE on doing this a 4th time?"

Unless it's fun.

Achievements? Some marginally better items? While I will admit its better than having a joke of a game that is so easy anyone can fly right to the end of it (LOD), I still question the decision to define an end game with an extra difficulty level. Why not just make Hell mode the "inferno" mode? Because the longevity can be lengthened arbitrarily with FOUR difficulty levels!! Is the expansion going to have a 5th mode?

Blizz has stated that Inferno isn't their final end game solution.

You heard it here first, the inability of the devs to upgrade this game's gameplay is going to be a dagger in this game's heart.

Inability to update? So the addition of skills runes isn't an update? Changing the whole gameplay mechanic from using 1-2 skills to giving the player a choice of 6 skills from a pool of >20 viable options isn't an update? I dunno what kind of update you need. Make it into a 3rd person action game? FPS?

The addicts will still say its great

Or people who genuinely like the game.

like they do with Diablo 2 10 years after its demise, the underemployed will still try to eke out a few cents a day on the RMAH and praise the economic aspect, but many people will play through the story, maybe even try out each character, and quickly realize the game is STALE, just like LOD became within 48 hours to me and anyone else with the sensibility to see that there was no point left to doing PVE in it.

I started play D2 after LOD came out and I didn't find it 'stale'. Endless Baal runs got a little repetitive, but I still enjoyed doing them since I could work towards more efficient clears. I'm glad that in D3 they've removed the 'boss run only' mindset to find awesome items.

extra difficulty levels is not an end game

While I kinda agree, what was appealing about D2 pre-LOD end game that was appealing? Are there any other games that have a nice endgame that might work for a Diablo-esque game?

and we should all be clamoring for a better solution than this so-called inferno mode.

Blizz has said Inferno is not their final end game solution. (Yes I am repeating myself, but it bears repeating)

yeah i'll still buy the game but only because $60 is nothing, i spend that much on Starbucks in a month. I just have a hard time believing that after 12 years, all that we're really getting is Diablo 2 with a technology boost.

I hope that you find yourself wrong in this regard and see it as a D2 sequel, as I do.

It will make blizzard lots of money no doubt but at the end of the day, people will realize it was just another time sink of finding items for no purpose other than the sake of finding items.

And if that time sink is fun, is it really a bad thing?

[Dyz]

I read the first line of the first post and passed this off as a bad attempt at a troll. Then I looked down and saw this had 6 pages

[konfeta]

Hm, he is pretty good at it.

[nailertn]

"...most people will only realize what a pointless amount of time they've invested in a game that wasn't improved only after years have passed. The rest of us will have realized it early on and moved on. I'll get the enjoyment of a full play through on my main. You guys can have fun finding all those VEX rune equivalents slaving away on the same content for years."

You know I hate fishing. Tried it, hated it. Yet for some strange reason I don't feel the urge to tell fishermen what a **** and boring hobby they have, and how it hasn't changed at all for centuries. The essence of Diablo is killing monsters and collecting items, the essence of fishing is catching fish. News flash, that won't change no matter how you think it should because you don't enjoy "finding all those VEX rune equivalents slaving away on the same content for years". Or as I prefer putting it: "playing the game".

People try things and if they don't like them they move on. Why are you... special? As is plenty obvious from your posts you don't enjoy the core mechanic of the game, that much you figured out many years ago in LOD. Yet you buy Diablo 3 which according to you is nothing but a reskinned version of LOD. So you play a game you already know you don't like and come here to tell others that do like it, how they are wasting their time. Ironic.

[rhamutap]

I'm totally stoked about D3. The skills, the bnet 2.0 match making interface...

Ahahahahha. Totally stoked bro?

[Doppel]

Forums are not meant to be hangouts of sycophants (to the guy who posted a definition, feel free to look that one up).

You're an idiot.

[DarkPhenomenon]

Ahahahahha. Totally stoked bro?

Yes, I look forward not having to sift through dozens of empty games with the content in the topic long completed, I will enjoy choosing what quest I want and jumping into games where people are on said quest

[ElBozo]

Well... A decent idea for end-game expirience which isn't the same story we completed 3 times aleready - but with bells and whistles, can be found in Dungeon Siege. There, the singleplayer mode (can be played co-op too) is quite long - think normal+nightmare in d2:lod. After finishing it, you can go and play an expansive non-linear map which could easily fit an MMO. Even though knowledgable players could navigate through it easily and complete it in no time, it was great for the new players - since you had complete freedom in the paths you chose.

Such solution would be a nice breath of fresh air. And if Beta is any indicator of what we can expect (i know it's not, but for the sake of argument let's assume that), the game seems to be quite linear and really tied to the story line. That's one of the things that really put me off when i had my chance to play the Beta. As crazy as it sounds, the fact that you have to follow the storyline so strictly is a big detriment to me. I would have no problem being held by the hand in the first playthrough - just to expirience the story, but having to play the same way every next difficulty level? I would find that tiresome to say the least. Having to wait for every setpiece moment to play out or do another menial task, just to progress to the next area and so on. I wonder if it will be this way on latter difficulty levels or Blizz will let players go wild and play their way...

In conclusion, for end game (or progressing difficulty levels) i would propose one of the following:
a) Make the singleplayer longer, more epic, more directed and have the end game content be this big sandboxy world which players can explore and/or farm at their own pace, with difficulty options to satisfy their gaming needs.
or
b) Keep the Normal/Nightmare/Hell as it is, just give option to streamline the story on Nightmare/Hell and instead of Inferno, add 1 or 2 (or more) acts worth of new end game content for players to play in - something that isn't the same story yet again.