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  1. #121
    IncGamers Member FizzyBubbly's Avatar
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    Re: How I plan on making $1000 in the first month

    Your response is based on a Google search that you did online yet you answer as if you have had years of experience in regards to what i do for a living. The're many reasons a person cannot pay their liens against highly valued properties, also loans are not as easily attainable as you are suggesting. I am very disappointed with your response Azzure, a few minutes of Google search should not give you the confidence to answer in such a way.



  2. #122
    IncGamers Member cozmiccc's Avatar
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    Re: How I plan on making $1000 in the first month

    Quote Originally Posted by FizzyBubbly View Post
    Your response is based on a Google search that you did online yet you answer as if you have had years of experience in regards to what i do for a living. The're many reasons a person cannot pay their liens against highly valued properties, also loans are not as easily attainable as you are suggesting. I am very disappointed with your response Azzure, a few minutes of Google search should not give you the confidence to answer in such a way.

    Well he did say tax lien is not available in Australia and it's probably something that is very US-centric, so how else does he supposed to know?

    And you don't like it that he does some research? Wut? Maybe you prefered ignorant people replying to you.



  3. #123
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    Re: How I plan on making $1000 in the first month

    Quote Originally Posted by Abidextria View Post
    Here is my "strat"
    Rush inferno
    Get to act 4
    Lvl blacksmith
    ...
    Sell dropped rares/sets/legendary .....will try to trade using forums or ****ty in game chat for what i want on my character.
    ...
    Sell excess gold
    ...
    I will be playing solo when farming, not sharing my MF/GF, plus i like the enchantress buffs =)
    ...
    WILL I MAKE 1000$ ?!?!?!?! probably not....
    lol
    getting to inferno act 4 in a month? Nice
    Good luck selling $1000 worth of gold and items while doing that

    Also why not share your MF/GF? you're killing more monsters due to the group, and 1 item at 100% MF is inferior to 4 items at 25% MF, and if MF becomes nonlinear for sets/legendaries in a future patch (like how it changed in diablo 2 after a couple patches) then it will be much more advantageous to get more kills for shared MF

    ...especially since your WD thats selling all his items and wearing MF gear probably isn't going to bring 1/4 the killing power to the team



  4. #124
    IncGamers Member FizzyBubbly's Avatar
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    Re: How I plan on making $1000 in the first month

    It wasn't the research, it was the as matter of fact answer. Either way I am no longer going to comment in regards to tax liens, the point was completely missed by the community.

    Edit: So can we please get back to the topic at hand rather then continuing back and forth.


    Last edited by FizzyBubbly; 22-04-2012 at 21:29.

  5. #125
    IncGamers Member Azzure's Avatar
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    Re: How I plan on making $1000 in the first month

    Quote Originally Posted by FizzyBubbly View Post
    Your response is based on a Google search that you did online yet you answer as if you have had years of experience in regards to what i do for a living. The're many reasons a person cannot pay their liens against highly valued properties, also loans are not as easily attainable as you are suggesting. I am very disappointed with your response Azzure, a few minutes of Google search should not give you the confidence to answer in such a way.
    Chill, I said I know very little about tax liens. I didn't google anything, I am looking at it as a logical investor. I'm not trying to call you out or anything.

    I am interested in this subject though. Correct me if I'm wrong here:

    Property taxes are MUCH LOWER than the value of a property (in Australia, property taxes are less than 0.3% of the value of the property in most cases). No one on planet earth would risk losing their property for a debt of a fraction of the value of the property due to outstanding taxes. You would sell the property for a quarter of the market-value if you had to before allowing your property to be taken. This is why I draw the conclusion that virtually the only time someone will lose their property from outstanding property taxes is if they intentionally want to lose that property.

    Again, please correct me if I'm mistaken, I'm interested to know more about this.

    Secondly, from my experience there is no such thing as risk-free guaranteed investment, especially one yielding double digit gains. If there was, it would quickly get snapped up, unless you think you're the only one who knows about the awesomeness of tax liens? Investment is one of the most competitive markets on earth. Investors would queue outside a double digit risk-free investments in massive droves, especially in this market.

    I'm not saying you are wrong, or exaggerating, if you are successful at doing what you're doing that's great. I'm just skeptical when it comes to the concept of risk-free guaranteed double-digit returns, because to date, I have not ever encountered or heard of such a thing


    Last edited by Azzure; 23-04-2012 at 00:57.

  6. #126
    IncGamers Member FizzyBubbly's Avatar
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    Re: How I plan on making $1000 in the first month

    Quote Originally Posted by Azzure View Post
    Chill, I said I know very little about tax liens. I didn't google anything, I am looking at it as a logical investor. I'm not trying to call you out or anything.

    I am interested in this subject though. Correct me if I'm wrong here:

    Property taxes are MUCH LOWER than the value of a property (in Australia, property taxes are less than 0.3% of the value of the property in most cases). No one on planet earth would risk losing their property for a debt of a fraction of the value of the property due to outstanding taxes. You would sell the property for a quarter of the market-value if you had to before allowing your property to be taken. This is why I draw the conclusion that virtually the only time someone will lose their property from outstanding property taxes is if they intentionally want to lose that property.

    Again, please correct me if I'm mistaken, I'm interested to know more about this.

    Secondly, from my experience there is no such thing as risk-free guaranteed investment, especially one yielding double digit gains. If there was, it would quickly get snapped up, unless you think you're the only one who knows about the awesomeness of tax liens? Investment is one of the most competitive markets on earth. Investors would queue outside a double digit risk-free investments in massive droves, especially in this market.

    I'm not saying you are wrong, or exaggerating, if you are successful at doing what you're doing that's great. I'm just skeptical when it comes to the concept of risk-free guaranteed double-digit returns, because to date, I have not ever encountered or heard of such a thing

    Thank you for clarifying your prior post Azzure, I respect your insight very much and was taken aback by the post. I was trying to stay vague because tax liens can be a very in depth subject and I didn't want to make the whole thread into a Tax lien 101. But I guess I'll try to shed some more light on the subject specifically in regards to the percentages and how the return comes with a minimum guaranteed return.

    I will try to break this down the best I can.

    1.) Property Taxes in the US are extremely high, among the properties I own In NJ I have a small 50x100 2 story building that costs me $22,000 a year. You will see taxes at 2.3% or even higher, This can add up extremely quickly.

    2.) How does a Tax Lien happen? When a tax lien is issued it means that the owner has not payed property taxes to the governing county. The county will wait till a specific date during the year where they will officially say your back taxes will be sold as liens against your property at auction. Since the counties can't wait for repayment from the property owner since they need the money to run organizations such as police, firefighters, and general maitenance of roads and tunnels they will auction these liens to investors.

    3.)Tax Lien Auctions have many different auction styles that counties may choose to use but many use a reverse auction. But more importantly when a property owner's taxes are put on lien they will owe the County a percentage. In NJ that's 18%(some states charge as much as 50%) annually. So when you attend an auction the amount you pay is set to the amount owed on the lien. The bidding however consists of investors bidding down to the interest rate they are willing to except.

    For example:
    -The Auction will now begin for Lot:34 Block 6023 (this is how they designate a property)
    -We will start the bidding at 18%
    -Investor "I'll Take 18"
    -Investor#2 "I'll take 17.5"

    **This will continue till they have reached the lowest interest rate an investor is willing to except.

    --The wining investor will then receive ownership of the lien which grants them several things.
    ---1)They are debtor of 1st position. meaning they have rights to the assets before banks and any other 3rd party.
    ---2)Upon lien redemption(will touch on next) they will receive the original amount of the lien plus the interest set at time of the auction.
    ---3)If the property owner fails to pay off the lien in full after 2 yrs the lien holder has the right to foreclose on the property Free and Clear of any other liens or debts against the property.
    ---4)Right to add(purchase) any future owed taxes to the lien

    Tax liens must be paid to the County in full + interest by the property owner in 1 installment within 2 years of the auction, this is what makes it very hard to get out of a lien.

    4)When a property owner pays their lien off this is called redemption. In NJ they will pay to the county 18% interest on their total back taxes while the county will then take that money and give you the money you "lent" them buy purchasing the lien and also give you the interest for which the lien was purchased, say 16%. In the end the county was able to keep running because you had paid the back taxes of the property owner and they also keep the interest spread from the auction. In this example 2%.

    5)So how can you Guarantee the return on investment? Its very simple, the County does all the busy work for you so all you have to do is some minor homework on the property you are bidding on and establish a floor to the interest rate you are willing to except. For me this is 15%. Why homework? you simply need to know the assets behind what you are buying. Is it a vacant building, land, house? What is in the area? information such as that will give you a game plan whether you are looking for the lien to redeem or foreclose.

    6)The're also different methods to these investments. Some, like me, plan on the lien being redeemed and in so not having to foreclose on the property but very consistently receiving my floor interest rate. Others look for properties that they can likely foreclose on.

    7)So how come it is hard to find actual good information about tax liens? The answer lies in the fact that tax liens don't make anyone $ except for the investor and the county. That's why you wont see people advertising it(other then the county when an auction is occurring). Also banks and brokerages can't make anything from it so they can't sell you it as an investment vehicle.

    8)So are there risks? Yes and No, for the most part Tax liens are like buying a gov't bond but for a much greater interest rate. As long as you do your homework on the property(any other liens, will they redeem, is there history of multiple tax liens on the prop?all public info) you will be as close to a guaranteed investment return you can get to. The one and only thing that can kill your investment is if the property owner goes through bankruptcy. This is an extremely extremely rare occasion and is easily found by doing a search. Even so this will still not always kill your lien and I have yet to meet a knowledgeable investor that has lost a lien do to this.
    -----------------

    So how did I learn about tax liens?-- Well it happened to me. At one point I got greedy and tried to develop the properties I owned too quickly and was literally using all the money coming in(I knew they would shoot back the profits just as quick but didn't expect some major delays). This added up to many --- of thousands of dollars in back taxes plus 18% interest in yr 1 and another 18% compounded on yr 2. That's $---,---.-- that had to be paid all at once. I was lucky, I was able to secure the money in time to pay the lien off 3 days before the lien holder would have been able to foreclose. After such a heart wrenching experience I realized that this investor had probably made about 20% on his investment and if I had not been able to pay he would have gained ownership of properties worth many many times as much as his investment. Once my properties where making profit I decided I would learn this form of investment. There really are a bunch of online places that dumb it down and try to sell you the info but since it is a government auction all the rules and statues are readily available through your county office.


    *my apologies for leaving out the amounts but there are some things I don't want running around on the forums

    -----------------

    I hope I have explained this in a way that is understandable. At this point I hope that the thread can move on from this topic and back to Diablo 3 Market.

    **I am more then willing to make a real life investment thread if it is asked for. From my professional background I truly find it satisfying to show people how to secure their financial future at a young age.

    ----------------

    Final Note:

    I am a gamer that got off his *** and worked so he can have time to get back on it and play some damn games. I really can't wait to see how the Diablo 3 economy develops, but to everyone here I say focus on it being fun and if you make some extra pocket change along the way think of it as blizzards interest payment on the soul you gave them 15 yrs ago.



  7. #127
    IncGamers Member Azzure's Avatar
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    Re: How I plan on making $1000 in the first month

    Thank you very much for the detailed explanation. It is very interesting. The assumption I had about how much property taxes cost in the US was the primary reason behind my misconceptions.

    At the auctions though, I would've thought that it would be highly competitive, especially due to the 0% interest rate atm. Surely there are bidders willing to take a 9% or less return rate? Considering it sounds like the risk profile of tax liens is about the same as bonds, and bonds yield very low rates (2-5%)?

    The bankruptcy thing is something I've previously heard about, where it could be a huge risk for the tax lien holder. And if someone is unable to pay out their property tax, it would usually mean they literally cannot do so and have exhausted all other money supplies, and therefore may be likely to file for bankruptcy. Perhaps that is the biggest risk in tax liens?



  8. #128
    IncGamers Member FizzyBubbly's Avatar
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    Re: How I plan on making $1000 in the first month

    Yes bankruptcy is really the big gorilla in the room yet just cause someone can't pay a lien doesn't mean they don't have money it is more the fact that they don't have ENOUGH to pay ALL AT ONCE. The fact that a property owner has to pay their lien in full all at once that has been compounded over 2 yrs is what makes it hard to redeem the lien, again when an owner owes 50-100k+ all at once it doesn't mean they don't have money and have to go through bankruptcy, it just means they cant come up with 50-100k+ in one payment in time. And yes people are willing to accept all the way down to about 5% but you have to realize the sheer volume of tax liens compared to the number of investors at any one auction. Many times all the liens aren't even sold and are sold post auction online by the County.



  9. #129
    IncGamers Member AKUder's Avatar
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    Re: How I plan on making $1000 in the first month

    I imagine part of the reason a lot of people don't pursue this is that they don't want to end up taking control of the property. For people ready and willing to manage property, it's probably great, but if you just want to invest, there are other avenues that they pursue.



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