Thoughts on the Revenge skill?

[ElementEight]

So far I've included it in every build. As a barb, you will get hit, you will sit in a bunch of monsters often, you will want healing and everybody likes a bunch of aoe damage that doesn't cost a resource.

I think its balancing factor is that you can't really rely on it. You'll need something else for survivability. Also, it fulfils many roles described above, but has no specialty. It's not that great for filling lacks.

[Youngtimer]

Did you know how long Revenge lasts (unused) until the button turns grey?

[yovargas]

It's OPness comes from the fact, that against multiple enemies its an amazing and somewhat reliable heal, it still deals good damage, doesn't cost anything and doesn't have a cooldown.

It DOES have a cost - taking 7 hits (which in some places may be a very significant cost). Nope, I don't see anything OP about it. It's good and interesting but very situational.

[HardRock]

Come to think of it, I don't think macroing Revenge in the way I'm doing it is allowed. I might have to use multiple inputs on keystrokes instead.

It's not exactly convenient, but I just tried and if you keep Revenge's button pressed, then it will be used automatically when it becomes active.

Did you know how long Revenge lasts (unused) until the button turns grey?

You have about 8 seconds to use it. This timer resets when Revenge would activate again.

[Superstate]

It DOES have a cost - taking 7 hits (which in some places may be a very significant cost). Nope, I don't see anything OP about it. It's good and interesting but very situational.

This number of 7 you keep referring to I'm assuming is for the base proc as swings reaches an unlimited number of hits (which would be 6,6666666..). Keep in mind that for Provocation, the "cost" as you elegantly put it is only 3,33333.. incoming swings.

Because you didn't use the numbers I provided for 90% certainty right?

Consider how much faster you can deal out dmg with nearly every other Barb skill and "overpowered" claims become moot. 2 Cleaves, for example, do more dmg than Revenge, and can be done at all times. It's cool, but by no means a must have.

I'm not sure what about "it isn't a substitute to a primary generator" you didn't quite grasp!

You seem to have also missed the concept of Revenge's usefulness scaling very good with increasing n targets, or not fully realized the consequences of that.

Yes, the heal is amazing, but the DPS, while nice, is clearly minimal.

Explain minimal please! Using Provocation and using averages here, and assuming 3 monsters with an atk speed of 1 aps, that's slightly less than 1 proc per second (0,9) on average. Now, I want you to find another ability which will let you deal 220% wpn dmg as AoE with an average interval of 1,11111 seconds in such a scenario, and also heals you for scaling amounts of damage, cost no fury, and has no cooldown.

Once again, it is at its strongest when you are in one of the most dangerous situations; when you are swarmed by monsters. Not only is it the most damage-dealing ability under swarmed conditions (we're assuming WW hits at 110/3 per attack, since each use is 3 attacks, and for Earthquake we include its cd), it keeps you alive as long as you continue to use it (or at least much longer than the other abilities mentioned).

Some more thoughts on this skill, particularly Superstate's analysis.

1. If there is no safe way to macro Revenge, the utility of the skill in reality will inevitably be less than what it seems on paper. I don't think any reasonable player can cannot react quick enough every single time the skill activates in order to fully maximize the utility of the skill.

2. I can understand the heal to be amazing in a fight with a pack of champions/rares... your bulb will fill up pretty darn quick (pack of 5 = 30% heal). But in a boss fight (assuming no minions), the heal becomes less obvious, just a 6% heal per proc. Not exactly overpowered in that sense.

1. It is a fair trade-off I think actually. You don't have to react to Revenge, playing proactively (a more fancy word for button-mashing) is very possible. I understand not everybody wants to either button mash or just play reactively. These people would have to understand that they'll be losing potential power in the later difficulties, but I'm fine with that.

2. The consequence of scaling exponentially with the number of targets is indeed that it becomes weak in scenarios with low-aps/high-strike-size ratios such as bosses without minions. Provocation helps.

Superstate was talking about one hit damage, not DPS. The DPS of Revenge is clearly not the best.

It's OPness comes from the fact, that against multiple enemies its an amazing and somewhat reliable heal, it still deals good damage, doesn't cost anything and doesn't have a cooldown.

You complete me!

Although I disagree with the DPS being poor, all depends on the variables!

[yovargas]

I'm not sure what about "it isn't a substitute to a primary generator" you didn't quite grasp!

I used Cleave because it's a generator and generators don't do generally that much damage compared to Spenders and yet in most situations, Cleave will most likely out-damage Revenge. As you say - it is at its strongest when you are in one of the most dangerous situations - but outside of that situation, it's not all that useful. Plus - I'm gonna go on a limb and say that even the tough Barb is going try to not get hit a lot!

[HardRock]

I'm gonna go on a limb and say that even the tough Barb is going try to not get hit a lot!

I can see that being the case for a Barb who ignores Revenge.

The truly worrying thing for me is that with enough Vitality and damage mitigation gear Revenge is a substitute for potion mashing in situations when you need it the most. The problem is that D3's combat system isn't designed with that in mind. With Revenge a Barb can basically game the whole combat system of D3. A cooldown or a big reduction in healing is in order I think.

[yovargas]

The truly worrying thing for me is that with enough Vitality and damage mitigation gear Revenge is a substitute for potion mashing in situations when you need it the most.

At the cost of a skill slot filled with a more reliable offensive or defensive skill when you don't "need it the most" - which will be most of the time, presumably.

[Superstate]

One thing I wanted to clarify that is not related to the current discussion.


I said it is increasingly powerful for defensive Barbarians and I wanted to add to this statement. If I set my defensive stats and a number for incoming attacks (irregardless of strike size), I can quite easily derive just how much Revenge leech is worth in effective life. What you will see is that each point of life increases the value of Revenge, which obviously is expected beforehand, but it also means that each point of Armor also increases the potency of Revenge for defensive purposes. What you end up with is that, for defensive purposes, Revenge is the strongest for Shield Barbarians, and reversely, the least powerful for very offensive, non War Cry builds and so on.


Remember that this is the defensive portion only. And that the Barbarian has to focus on Armor/Block/Life and not dodge.

[HardRock]

it also means that each point of Armor also increases the potency of Revenge for defensive purposes.

This should go without saying. Armor is Life, except when we're talking about thorns damage or damage reflection.