Does the DH seem kind've.... lackluster?

[Kintara]

Sorry, missed that. Okay, I still don't know what you mean. Could you revamp a skill to your style?

What would Hungering Arrow look like in your perfect game? How would it work and be more costly and weighty?

I just feel like I hear a lot of "this doesn't meet my expectations," and not a lot of examples of how those expectations could be translated into something practical. You sound so close to actually presenting an alternate vision...without actually doing so.

There are some of skills, for instance with various effects that interact between discipline and hatred. Do you want more Bola Shot-Bitter Pill style abilities? More Evasive Fire like abilities?

Also, I'm hoping I won't be disappointed with the special effects when I actually get to try them all. The rune effects might have some cool stuff that we just haven't seen much of yet. That said, I wouldn't want the Demon Hunter to have as much "flash" as the Wizard, or even the Barbarian. Special effects that belie the power of the skill sounds kind of in-flavor.
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Would you like it if Bola Shot generated hatred on hit, but lost discipline on miss, and did more damage to compensate. Things like that?

[z00t]

I think the problem with the Demon Hunter is that it requires too much tactical effort to perform on a level similar to the Barb and Wizard, which is very straightforward brutal smash-hit-kill classes and not needing to jump through a series of hoops to perform.

The barb and wiz are overkill classes. Why wasting time on killing them one by one when you kill them all at once for less effort is what im asking?

Earlier in SC2's life (not sure about now), Zerg were considered balanced but also that they were the hardest race to play. That didn't stop people from playing Zerg - they played Zerg just because they liked the playstyle :P.

Same with the Saracens in Age of Kings - again, designed to be a faction that was harder to play than others, but very satisfying once you learn them.

I see the Demon Hunter the same way - like I said, a connoisseur's class. :]

But see, that's not a good way of giving skills a cost: making them less effective. That's not a cost that yields a feeling of power, that's a cost that does nothing but make them feel even worse. D:

And yes, I agree; the DH's resource system stylistically is perfect for the DH -- and the system could be great functionally, but it isn't. I wish it was, because there's so much untrod ground with a dual-resource system. Few games have expanded beyond simply a mana pool and fury system, so there's lots of potential. I think that a revert back to the earlier Hatred/Discipline system and improvement upon that could make for a great resource system, and as a result more-awesome and versatile skills to follow.

I agree that they lack the same feeling of 'power' that you get when playing as the Barbarian, but then again, I don't get that feeling when playing as the Witch Doctor, either. Ultimately, all the classes are designed to deliver a kind of visceral satisfaction when you play them, but they all go about it in different ways to appeal to different niches. To me, Barbarians fulfil the 'raw power' fantasy. The Demon Hunter's niche is to appeal to the tactical player who wants to feel like they're an elite special forces agent, not Arnold Schwarzenegger with a bazooka :P. The current feel of the Demon Hunter would be ruined if you give their skills similar sound design to a Barbarian, for example.

Also, I'm afraid I only got into the beta with the current Hatred/Discipline system - the previous system was that there were no hatred-generators, right? It must have been cool to have stronger Hatred-spenders on account of having no hatred-generators, but then again, it is just the beta, after all. You can play the Wizard without needing to use Signature Skills in the beta as well, but I think that lategame, Blizzard just realised that it was too easy to run out of Hatred, and so re-designed the DH's skills to be a mix of generators/spenders.

On one hand, the overall power of hatred-spenders would have to be weaker, but on the other hand, we're not defenceless when out of Hatred. I personally think it's a good compromise. As much as I love the 'tactical' feeling of playing the Demon Hunter, I don't think Blizzard wanted to make it TOO hard for players :P.

If the DH could kill any pack with a single 'globe' of Hatred, she'd be overpowered. And if you had to let Hatred recharge during protracted fights and only have basic attacks to rely on, then it creates this playstyle with really huge pendulum swings of power, where you're either really strong or really weak. And feeling weak kinda sucks :P. The current way, with Hatred Spenders / Generators, they can make her damage output more consistent and not make the player feel bad in situations where they may spend all their Hatred.

[Hellpyre]

I really wanted to see a need for keeping a balance. When I saw the lore behind the system, I was picturing something like the current levels of regen, with each half generating a part in the other as is was spent. I thought the DH would hit a balance between using Hatred and Discipline to keep up the maximum efficiency for both, with something like a 3:1 or 4:1 ratio of Hatred to Discipline. But the current system, while still enjoyable, is just kind of underwhelming. I feel like there's just Hatred and then Discipline represents a sort of shared cooldown between skills, rather than a real resource.

[z00t]

The Hatred/Discipline system is the only way to gate the particular mix of the Demon Hunter's offensive and defensive skills.

Take, for example, the challenge of balancing the following: "how do we let the Demon Hunter use Vault three times, but still have resource to attack with?"

If the Demon Hunter had only one resource (let's say, Hatred capped at 100 for example), having Vault cost 34 Hatred or something would mean that you can't attack anymore. Similarly, if you make Vault cost less Hatred (say 15), then you could move around much more than would be fair.

The way Discipline works has ALWAYS been sort of the 'shared cooldown' you mention, but that's how it's always worked. It's the most elegant way to solve this particular design issue with the Demon Hunter, and like I said in an earlier post, I feel that what makes the DH's resource management interesting is not Hatred or Discipline individually (individually they may seem underwhelming), but the interaction that you get when you have BOTH of them to think about.

Again, it's still early in the beta, so none of the classes are really feeling the effect of resource management. I'm confident that the choices you'll have to make with Hatred/Discipline spending will be much better later in the game, as will the other classes' resource management too .

[Jaago]

I'm confident that the choices you'll have to make with Hatred/Discipline spending will be much better later in the game, as will the other classes' resource management too .

At least if they remove that stupidly overpowered unlimited source of resources that is the Suppression Fire/Punishment combo.

[Elfik]

At least if they remove that stupidly overpowered unlimited source of resources that is the Suppression Fire/Punishment combo.

Lol I like that one, but I admit that it's overpowered. Suppression fire might be ok on its own, but punishment should definitely have a long cooldown, or not refill ALL hatred.

Overall I like the Demon Hunter class as I think there are several unique things about her. Vault combined with discipline is one of the best movement abilities. There are classic abilities like multishot and strafe whose effects are hard to mimic with other classes. There are lots of traps and snares which are subtly different from those of other classes. Also, she is the only class which specializes in ranged weapons, so a lot of people will like her just for that archetype.

And ZooT...I wouldn't put much stock in the polls here. Every fansite will have a totally different result in their polls, but come release things may be very different. I highly doubt the witch doctor will be the most popular class. Just pretend there are no polls, then it's only a 1/5 chance =).

Also, the saracens were a connoisseur civ in age of kings? I never really liked them because all their best units were counter cavalry units which gave them problems against archer civs, especially in the expansion with halberdier meat shields.

[Jaago]

Lol I like that one, but I admit that it's overpowered. Suppression fire might be ok on its own, but punishment should definitely have a long cooldown, or not refill ALL hatred.

I think that Supression Fire is the main culprit, actually. With a fast weapon and a decent pack of monsters, it can easily be a ten-fold increase in the DH's discipline regeneration. That just doesn't sit right with me. Punishment isn't exactly weak, either, but without near-endless discipline, it would need to fight for room against precious movements skills.


In general, I'm surprised people still find the DH lackluster: many of their abilities seem to deal significantly higher damage than similar skills on other classes. Just compare Hungering Arrow to Magic Missile... Or maybe it is just the difficulty of finding proper ranged weapons and the relatively less exaggerated graphics of many of their attacks. At least to me the DH seems to be in the top 2 strongest classes at the moment, based on the numbers in the skill calculator.

[Elfik]

I think that Supression Fire is the main culprit, actually. With a fast weapon and a decent pack of monsters, it can easily be a ten-fold increase in the DH's discipline regeneration. That just doesn't sit right with me. Punishment isn't exactly weak, either, but without near-endless discipline, it would need to fight for room against precious movements skills.


In general, I'm surprised people still find the DH lackluster: many of their abilities seem to deal significantly higher damage than similar skills on other classes. Just compare Hungering Arrow to Magic Missile... Or maybe it is just the difficulty of finding proper ranged weapons and the relatively less exaggerated graphics of many of their attacks. At least to me the DH seems to be in the top 2 strongest classes at the moment, based on the numbers in the skill calculator.

I hope they don't get rid of suppression fire as a discipline generator though. Perhaps change it to only generate 1 discipline every time it hits at least one enemy.

Also, maybe people feel the DH is lackluster because it is too strong and too brainless? That's the feeling I've got from some of the posts. Either way, it's probably a symptom of the beta being incomplete.

[Karpalo]

To me DH seems like an arch type of hero with steady scaling that leads to be a dps powerhouse in the end.

I could be mistaken, but i think that early game itemization and abilities don't make justice for dual resource system. I think we start to see the true form of DH later on in the game when we get access to gear which has attack speed and crit chance. Those attributes have huge impact to the way that the resource system functions.

[stonerdoom]

I've only had the beta for a few days and I'm not sure what game you are playing, but the DH simply owns by the time you max at L13. This diablo boys. its all about the damage. Craftable, fast weapons are available throughout the game as you move up. I will be starting with the DH having tried all 5 classes. It will be a simple build and has gold collecting abilities built in. from the get-go this is the build for me. once the economy settles in, then i will experiment. many are overthinking D3. don't. just kill and move as efficiently as possible.