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  1. #1
    IncGamers Member FizzyBubbly's Avatar
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    Amazing Immortal WD!!

    Ok so I've had my fill of Firebat spam and suicide builds, what I really want is a WD that acts like a warlock so here it goes.

    Build: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculato...djQ!VXf!ZaZZYY

    So what are the characteristics of warlocks? Dots, CC, life as mana, and dmg spells that regen health. With this in mind I looked at the passives first.

    Passives:
    -Rush of Essence- Warlocks from WoW never seem to run out of mana and the spells from the spirit set seem to compliment the Warlock themed WD nicely.

    -Blood Ritual- People seem to want to use this on heavy mana builds however I think it is much more effective when used in mana light builds, especially when the light mana spells are restoring life.

    -Spirit Vessel- Along with giving a cd reduction to 1 of the spells in my build we also get to have our spirit walk+regen. Because lets face it, most people will spirit walk when they are near death so why not just embrace death as your oh **** button

    Now onto the Spells:

    You will notice there is not a primary spell used in this build however because it is so mana light you should have no issues consistently running from pack to pack of enemies.

    Spells:

    Haunt-Consuming Spirit-
    This is the spell you will be spamming at 98 mana 15% percent of which paid by life and receiving 30% back over the duration of the spell when all is said and done you would have spent 58 mana to do 575% weapon dmg and gained about 107 health/second.

    Locust Swarm-Devouring Swarm-
    This is the perfect Dot and forget spell to go along with Haunt. The 8 second duration is long enough to apply, cast your 3 haunts and reapply. However since this is not a spirit spell we want to keep our mana usage low so runeing it with mana regen gives us a virtual free application of haunt if it hits 2 enemies since haunt will only be costing 58 mana and Locust will give back 74.

    Grasp of the Dead-Unbreakable Grasp-
    You can't die if your enemies cant get in solid range of you and with the life regen of this build the ranged dmg from monsters can be mitigated.

    Soul Harvest-Siphon-
    I see many people looking to use this spell as an opener, yet I feel it is better used in the middle of your fight when the enemies are on top of you. Why run to them just to buff and then run away to cast. Let them come to you, if you get hit "so what?!" the harvest will heal you. And this extra heal makes so harvest still useful in boss fights. Since soul harvest is a spirit spell its cd gets lowered to 13 secs, in the end costs 35 mana counting the 30% return and the 15% life and heals for about 2162/enemy.

    Mass Confusion-Paranoia-
    This spell is like a neater horrify to me while also increasing the damage of my spells. CC+Dmg Buff+Dot(enemies fighting each other)

    Big Bad Voodo-Ghost Trance-
    This is more in consideration when in groups however as a 5% heal and movement speed boost on its own it is a nice tool to have solo, when in a group your allies will thank you especially in those situations where everyone is low on health, some need atk spd for extra hits to kill an enemy, and the others need to run their a** off all at the same time.

    So What will the spell rotation look like for this build?

    -Against weak pack-
    Grasp
    Locust
    Haunt
    -Against large pack-
    Grasp
    Locust
    Haunt x 3
    Repeat
    -Against Unique/Rare Pack-
    Mass Confuse
    Soul Harvest
    Locust
    Haunt x3
    Grasp
    Soul Harvest(if needed)
    Locust
    Haunt x3


    This build should allow you to stay at a sustained amount of health and mana while have little if no downtime while also consistently gaining health making for a very annoyingly hard to kill WD.

    Please comment as you see fit. Thanks for any and all input.

    EDIT: build has been modified on post #8


    Last edited by FizzyBubbly; 30-03-2012 at 07:33.

  2. #2
    IncGamers Member z00t's Avatar
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    Re: Amazing Immortal WD!!

    Haunt seems like it returns a decent amount of life, but I believe all the stats here are shown as lvl 60 stats.

    107 health per Haunt is really not much when you consider that the highest-tier Health potion restores 12500 health, so I don't think that you can count on Haunt's heal to keep you alive :P. It's mainly there for the synergy with Blood Ritual.

    Unbreakable Grasp is awesome, and you should keep it, but I do think you need Horrify/Spirit Walk...I dunno, I like it's going to be a rule of thumb that most petless builds need 3 CCs including Mass Confusion because, let's face it, on harder difficulties, poop is going to hit the proverbial fan, and I suspect that we won't always have the luxury of waiting for Mass Confusion to come off cooldown.

    Your build currently relies a lot on 'tankiness' to offset its lack of upfront damage (your build's very reliant on DoT), but you're not really tanky :S. Haunt, as I mentioned, doesn't heal you for much life, and that just leaves you with Soul Harvest and Spirit Vessel as your only ways of allowing yourself to take damage, but having Spirit Vessel trigger is something we'd rather avoid having to use in the first place :P.

    Big Bad Voodoo seems like a bit of a waste in your build - it increases cast speed but you can't make full use of that portion of the skill since Locust Swarm and Haunt are more like fire-and-forget rather than needing serious spamming. But yeah, if you plan on grouping with this WD, it's fine.

    DoTs are fun, though! I'll share my take on DoTs with you later....the Patch 15 skill calc messed up all my skills and I'll have to re-make it after my classes in the morning :P.



  3. #3
    IncGamers Member FizzyBubbly's Avatar
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    Re: Amazing Immortal WD!!

    107 health per Haunt is really not much when you consider that the highest-tier Health potion restores 12500 health, so I don't think that you can count on Haunt's heal to keep you alive :P. It's mainly there for the synergy with Blood Ritual.
    its 107/second so if the haunt lasts for full duration that's 15sec*107 = 1605 health when cast onto three targets that's 4815 health over about 18 seconds which is 38% percent of the 12,500 health pot at that lvl, so I would consider that kind of consistent health gain substantial over time. Also remember i built this around the passives so it is picked with Blood Ritual in mind.

    Unbreakable Grasp is awesome, and you should keep it, but I do think you need Horrify/Spirit Walk...I dunno, I like it's going to be a rule of thumb that most petless builds need 3 CCs including Mass Confusion because, let's face it, on harder difficulties, poop is going to hit the proverbial fan, and I suspect that we won't always have the luxury of waiting for Mass Confusion to come off cooldown.
    I have spirit walk when If die (spirit vessel) and I'm ok with that. We cant make a rule of thumb about the CCs needed yet, with Gasp on such a short CD kiting will be a major part of the build. Regarding not having the luxury of waiting on Mass Confusion, well you can say that about any spell with a CD, doesn't mean it isn't sufficient for 90% of the other situations.

    Your build currently relies a lot on 'tankiness' to offset its lack of upfront damage (your build's very reliant on DoT), but you're not really tanky :S. Haunt, as I mentioned, doesn't heal you for much life, and that just leaves you with Soul Harvest and Spirit Vessel as your only ways of allowing yourself to take damage, but having Spirit Vessel trigger is something we'd rather avoid having to use in the first place :P.
    Umm.. I'm not sure what point your trying to make here the build isn't tanky, I think you are looking for the term Sustain and that's what this builds about. By Sustain I mean that the build will keep you at a consistent level of health and mana through most of your play. that doesn't in any way mean I think i can stand in front of a Rare pack and let them whale on me. In the end it is still a caster build that requires range and kiting. Also your comment on haunt not giving much health is a little off, if you consider almost half a health pot every 18 seconds negligible then I don't know what to tell ya. I am assuming you didn't realize that it was 107health/second.

    Big Bad Voodoo seems like a bit of a waste in your build - it increases cast speed but you can't make full use of that portion of the skill since Locust Swarm and Haunt are more like fire-and-forget rather than needing serious spamming. But yeah, if you plan on grouping with this WD, it's fine.
    5% heal that doesn't cost mana every 120 seconds with a speed boost. That's how I view it solo. In a group my prior explanation should suffice. "when in a group your allies will thank you especially in those situations where everyone is low on health, some need atk spd for extra hits to kill an enemy, and the others need to run their a** off all at the same time."

    Yes you could switch out Big Bad Voodoo for Horrify-Stalker or Spirit Walk-healing journey but the reason I am calling it the Immortal build is with the notion that it's ok to die, because you're not really dying because of spirit vessel. You also drop agro completely. It's a reset button that you don't have to press. Say you die go into spirit vessel, run away at 20%+ speed immune while gaining 10% health then trigger big Bad Voodoo to heal yourself another 5% and continue running away at 20%+ speed for 20 seconds while your party receives a bonus you left behind with Big Bad Voodoo.


    In the end i think your assuming that I intend to run into a pack thinking I can mitigate all the damage in the world through regen ,completely not the case. This build isn't for that person, its for a person who is looking to play smart and have a very good sustain throughout their play. This build is about the spell rotation functioning in an optimal/cohesive fashion.


    Last edited by FizzyBubbly; 30-03-2012 at 00:39.

  4. #4
    IncGamers Member pcguy's Avatar
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    Re: Amazing Immortal WD!!

    I liked your build a lot more after you defended it. You did not mention a lot of the points you made to z00t in your original post.

    Also, after taking a look at the thread, "How much life will we have at level 60?" I assume a WD will have somewhere between 10,000 and 30,000 life depending on gear.

    This is what interested me:

    The 90 second cooldown of Spirit Vessel's Spirit Walk is almost somewhat mitigated by Ghost Trance when it is off of cooldown. Assuming they are cast back-to-back, after Ghost Trance's 20 second duration ends, you will only have to wait 70 seconds before Spirit Vessel can trigger again.

    If Soul Harvest is also off of cooldown, and it is cast right after Ghost Trance, that is a maximum of 10,855 (2171 x 5 enemies) life - 100% to 33.33% of your maximum life, depending on gear - that can be gained immediately. This has a 15 second cooldown, so by the time you can cast it again, Spirit Vessel will have only 55 seconds before it can trigger again. Then you can cast it again at 40, 25, and 5 seconds remaining on Ghost Trance's cooldown. Basically, you A LOT of opportunity to heal before you take fatal damage.

    Long story short, it will be incredibly difficult to kill you without some serious burst damage or without some poorly planned or timed actions on your part.

    I have only one proposed edit: Phantasm
    Summon a spectre for 5 seconds that deals 45% weapon damage as Physical to all enemies within 10 yards.

    Reasons to Use Phantasm instead of Devouring Swarm:
    - 3.6 times cheaper than Locusts
    - does more 5% more damage over a shorter period of time
    - has a farther range*
    - works with Rush of Essence
    - spammable*
    - stackable* (unlike locusts, which only allows one locust application per monster)


    * not confirmed


    A single cast of Phantasm will cause 5% more weapon damage per second than Locust Swarm. Don't let Locust Swarm's longer duration fool you. They do 45% and 40% damage per second, respectively.

    Three Phantasms can do 135% Weapon Damage PER SECOND for FIVE SECONDS for a total of 675% weapon damage to enemies in the area of effect for less mana (324 mana) than the cost of a single cast of Locust Swarm (392 mana).

    The tradeoff is in the amount of work you have to do. Locust Swarm has the ability to "stick" to targets, ensuring full damage, as well as the ability to spread to additional targets. This means you only have to cast Locust Swarm one time to coat a group of targets, which offers you a lot of extra time to spam something else... But I am not concerned about this trade off, as you don't have any other skills to spam... Haunt, maybe, but that spreads on it's own.

    You might want to know how you would use this in your rotation:

    Generally, you would just cast a line of phantasms from the enemy to yourself and watch them walk through it. Then cast Unbreakable Grasp, spam them with Haunt, and begin casting new Phantasms. If they swarm you, use one of your emergency moves.

    This skill will mesh better with Big Bad Voodoo. You will be able to stack Phantasms more quickly.


    Last edited by pcguy; 29-03-2012 at 22:44.

  5. #5
    IncGamers Member FizzyBubbly's Avatar
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    Re: Amazing Immortal WD!!

    Thank you for seeing the strength of the Build and I actually was considering spirit barrage in the build because it does work with Essence. My only concern is the rotation like you pointed out, When I cast grasp I have at most 7 seconds to get through my rotation and cast grasp again. Since the max haunts you can have up at once is 3 you will take prob 4 to 5 secs to target and cast them. This leaves about 2 seconds to cast something as filler, for me that was locust swarm because I can get all my dots going and be able to grasp right when i need to again. If i add spirit barrage-Phantasm I am adding a whole 3-4 seconds of extra spamming.

    The question is "Is the trade off of the 3-4 seconds not having Grasp active worth the extra damage?"

    In the fights where I need grasp all the time I will wish I had Locust or some cast and forget spell to layer the dots within my cast sequence. In the fights I don't need grasp I will want more damage to get through to the next mob more quickly. Thinking about the pace that I take through the beta and how monsters can appear quickly I don't think i would be able to consistently anticipate the mobs to set up my 3 phantasms before I grasp. I think it would be something that would come down to testing, I know that phantasm would be better on mana and dmg but again back to the question I wrote above.



  6. #6
    IncGamers Member pcguy's Avatar
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    Re: Amazing Immortal WD!!

    Point taken Fizzy.

    Phantasm may definitely something to test at some point. Following your point about Grasp, other skills which would work as DoTs would be Spider Queen, or possibly even Manitou.

    Also, the 3 enemy limit has been removed from Haunt. Haunt can now be applied to any number of enemies.



  7. #7
    IncGamers Member z00t's Avatar
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    Re: Amazing Immortal WD!!

    Jeez Fizzy relax - you act like I'm out to get you, lol :P.

    I'm trying to offer constructive criticism, obviously I have differing viewpoints but if you can defend your build logically, then that's totally cool. Your build's not bad, it's just not my style :P.

    Your build also makes a lot more sense AFTER you explained it in your second post :P. And yeah - I DID miscalculate Haunt's healing, which played a big part in my scepticism.

    I use the term 'tankiness' broadly - I did mean it in the same way as you used 'Sustain' (I'd say that Sustain is a sub-category of 'tankiness' - one of several different ways you can make a character take more hits than normal)

    There's nothing wrong with Spirit Vessel, but I don't think it can always save you from a bad fight, otherwise you could play Inferno Hardcore and never die as long as I wait 90 seconds for Spirit Vessel to refresh. I can't vouch for this though since I obviously have no experience - it's just my gut feeling. For this reason, I still think you ought to take Spirit Vessel in conjunction with a shorter-cooldown panic button like Horrify or Spirit Walk. Just a personal preference.


    @PCGuy - I never considered Phantasm stacking, so that's an interesting point. I'm very curious now to see how that pans out. Whatever the case though, 10 yards is pretty tiny - I think that Locust Swarm would be better overall just for the extra flexibility it has in hitting more targets, even if its DPS isnt as high as a stacked Phantasm.

    @Fizzy - There is one other problem you may have with your build, and that is dealing with bosses. Like take Leoric for example, even with Grasp, Locusts, and Haunt all on him, it's only 98% weapon damage per tick. Do you not think this'll be a problem with certain bosses? With guys like Leoric, if you want to kite him by moving away from him, he'll teleport to you, probably out of Grasp of the Dead, so that portion of your DPS isn't even that reliable. I imagine that the Act bosses in later Acts can get quite nasty and that we'll need to find a balance between kiting for a long time, and killing them quickly.

    Also, Haunt's cast speed is limited only by your weapon attack speed - you can easily cast 3 pretty quickly. :]



  8. #8
    IncGamers Member FizzyBubbly's Avatar
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    Re: Amazing Immortal WD!!

    Zoot please don't take any of my comments or points as a personal attack in any way. I enjoy the back and forth of sharing ideas and preferences. That's the only way to really flesh out a good build.

    In reference to your concerns of not having another oh **** button I think they may be a little over burdening. With Grasp, Mass confusion, Big Bad Voodoo and the impressive sustain of the build I don't see the need for another tool to try and run away. I think that you are only looking at mass confusion as my only escape tool but you could easily grasp and run, or big bad voodoo and run as well. If I somehow get surrounded and stomped my spirit vessel will kick in and i'll run, if I pop out and for some reason i'm still near enemies I can soul harvest them and be practically at full health again then drop grasp and run some more. If somehow I am still having so much trouble with the mobs in the area then i see that as an undergeared/underleveled issue and not that of needing an extra oh **** button.

    With regards to boss fights, since my build has more sustain i'm not to worried about the fights going on longer, i'm never going to run out of mana and can heal very consistently. Speaking about the Skeli King he really is a walk in the park to kite but then again i spent 5 years kiting with a mage in WoW so the play style is second nature to me.

    You do have a point about the Damage against the bosses however, is it enough? can't tell yet... with a build that is focused on staying alive all the time your going to be giving up some nuke potential.

    It may end up that i have to swap locust for a form of spirit barrage to increase my single target dmg.

    I think Spirit Barrage-Well of Souls may work? it gives the "AOE" effect somewhat that i like from locust but increases my single target dps. Although it would definitely change up the cast sequence a bit maybe something like:

    Grasp
    Haunt x3
    Spirit barrage x3
    Rinse and repeat

    Ya maybe that's the way to go... Because with my passives you can spam 3 spirit barrages for about 197 mana instead of the usual 324 so your paying 197 mana for 840% weapon damage in about 3-5 seconds (4.26%Dmg per 1 Mana at 280-168% dps), Say locust infects 3 mobs consistently you are paying about 223 mana for 960% weapon dmg in 8 seconds (4.30% dmg per 1 Mana at 120% dps)* again that's only if locust infects 3 enemies every time so over all barrage does beat out locust by a decent margin. This change would bring my single target dmg from 98% a second to about 230%dps that's a 132% more dps!!

    Ok so the edited build looks like so:

    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculato...djQ!VXf!ZaZZYY

    ps: when this build becomes the most used WD build i'd like to give my thanks to Zoot and PCGuy



  9. #9
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    Re: Amazing Immortal WD!!

    Quote Originally Posted by FizzyBubbly View Post
    Mass Confusion-Paranoia-
    This spell is like a neater horrify to me while also increasing the damage of my spells. CC+Dmg Buff+Dot(enemies fighting each other)
    I might be wrong but I think that if you rune your Mass Confusion into Paranoia, you get totaly new skill. I mean it only does 20%dmg aoe debuff, and does not confuse any monsters. There are runes that buff main spell like unstable realm for mass confusion, that doesnt change the way skill work, but some change skill entairly.



  10. #10
    IncGamers Member FizzyBubbly's Avatar
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    Re: Amazing Immortal WD!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bulkers View Post
    I might be wrong but I think that if you rune your Mass Confusion into Paranoia, you get totaly new skill. I mean it only does 20%dmg aoe debuff, and does not confuse any monsters. There are runes that buff main spell like unstable realm for mass confusion, that doesnt change the way skill work, but some change skill entairly.
    I'm 99% positive you get both the confusion and the 20% buff. If it was the way you say the tool tip would read more like "Enemies in target area no longer become confused but instead receive 20% additional damage over 12 seconds." If you look at the other spells and runes you will see that if it changes the base spell they are very specific and describe the new spell in detail.

    The understanding of the verbiage you gave would lead us to think that Haunt runed with consuming spirit only does the life gain part without the base spell.



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