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  1. #1
    IncGamers Member
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    Grief/Grief vs Grief/Beast vs Grief/Death etc

    Now that I got some gear going I'm wondering if anyone did the actual calculations for gg barb equipment. I'm speaking for the point of view of frenzy, but I guess it applies to whirlwind too.
    I think it is well known that grief is the most damaging one hand weapon, but is it true to say that dual griefs is the most damaging combo?

    I have a griefz and a beastz. The ias on grief is only 30%, but the fanaticism from beast speeds it up to reach the last frenzy bp. The LCS for grief is all messed up. However, the one hand base damage of grief is approximately double ( checking my numbers ) of the beast. So if I take my beastz LCS ( which is like 1500-4500 ) and grief is double of that?

    This doesn't seem right to me. My death cleaver has the same damage as beast ( and thus half the damage of grief ) not counting deadly strikes. Yet if I replace grief with death cleaver then it seems to kill much much slower. So what am I missing here?

    How about beastz/deathz or grief/death?
    Beast and death both have crushing blow which is nice because grief doesn't have it. I got some from gores but still more is better..

    On another note, I have no idea why one of the weapons wear out faster than the other. I thought it might be because grief hits more due to ITD and -target def, but then it is sometimes the beastz that wears out faster. And the other is at 18 durability or so. So anyone know what's up with that?



  2. #2
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    Re: Grief/Grief vs Grief/Beast vs Grief/Death etc

    Quote Originally Posted by zaphodbrx View Post
    On another note, I have no idea why one of the weapons wear out faster than the other. I thought it might be because grief hits more due to ITD and -target def, but then it is sometimes the beastz that wears out faster. And the other is at 18 durability or so. So anyone know what's up with that?
    IIRC it has (something) to do with which one is the "primary" weapon - that one always attacks first (and often last). You could probably try to confirm this by manually equipping one first and closely monitoring the results.

    ... or maybe it's just random results.


    Can't help with the bulk of your questions, but I'd suspect of all the Grief+Grief proponents, at least one tested it.



  3. #3
    IncGamers Member Axamas's Avatar
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    Re: Grief/Grief vs Grief/Beast vs Grief/Death etc

    Hi

    Here are some maths I did, considering the only IAS you get is from weapon and Highlord Wrath, and with the charasteristics of my current frenzy barb and his "might" mercenary.

    (ZA : Berserker Axe // EA : Ettin Axe)

    weapons // att/sec // average damw1 // average dam w2 // total dam/sec

    EBOTDZA/GRIEFZA //4,54 // 5 620 // 7 466 // 59 410
    GRIEFZA/EDEATHEA //4,16 // 7466 // 6322 // 57 358
    GRIEFZA/EDEATHZA // 4,16 // 7466 // 6066 // 56 293
    EBDTODZA/EDEATHEA // 4,54 // 5 620 // 6 322 // 54 217
    EBDTODZA/EDEATHZA // 4,54 // 5 620 // 6 066 // 53 054
    BEASTZA/GRIEFZA // 5 / 2 822 // 7 466 // 51 440
    BEASTEA/EDEATHEA // 5 / 2 939 // 6 322 // 46 305
    EBOTDZA/EBOTDZA // 4,54 // 5 620 // 5 620 // 51 030
    EBOTDZA/BEASTZA // 5 // 5 620 // 2 822 // 42 210


    You can do your own calculation using the tool that you can find there :
    http://diablo2.ingame.de/tips/calcs/dmgcalc/dmgcalc.php
    You can toggle an english version !

    Hope this helps you.



  4. #4
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    Re: Grief/Grief vs Grief/Beast vs Grief/Death etc

    I think there is something wrong there. You have noted grief damage as 7466 in all cases. But for beastz/griefz, the fanaticism from beast gives a lot of +damage boost to grief so it will be definitely be more. It gives speed, too.



  5. #5
    IncGamers Member Axamas's Avatar
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    Re: Grief/Grief vs Grief/Beast vs Grief/Death etc

    Quote Originally Posted by zaphodbrx View Post
    I think there is something wrong there. You have noted grief damage as 7466 in all cases. But for beastz/griefz, the fanaticism from beast gives a lot of +damage boost to grief so it will be definitely be more. It gives speed, too.
    You are half right.
    I took in account the speed modifier.
    I didn't took in account the %dam modifier from fanatism.

    I'll redo the maths then.



  6. #6
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    Re: Grief/Grief vs Grief/Beast vs Grief/Death etc

    You can also take into account the fact that BoTD gives 30 to all stats. Disregarding energy, this means 90 additional points that could be put into strength to increase damage.
    Also, crushing blow/deadly strike. It's hard to fit them in mathematically though. Same with ITD modifiers and suchlike.

    Also, I think it's okay to assume that a few ias items are used. Such as LoH.



  7. #7
    IncGamers Member Spankeh's Avatar
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    Re: Grief/Grief vs Grief/Beast vs Grief/Death etc

    A number of things:

    1. You havent calculated the fanata damage on either beast itself, or the weapon its equipped with.
    2. 95% of Frenzy users will "max their breakpoint" to five frames per second, and will therefor boost damage output for the combos that do, but wont boost damage output to weapon combos that are already at 5ps. See my point here?
    3. What level Frenzy are you basing these figures on? Frenzy level boosts IAS every 3 levels by 3% or thereabouts.

    After playing with all these combos many many times, I can vouch for:

    Max Safety with High Life, and Hi Life|Mana Leech, Hi Damage| Hi Cr Blow|Deadly Strike = eBotdz + eDeathz
    Max Damage with Med Life, Low Life|Mana Leech, Med Safety| Low Cr Blow|Deadly Strike = Griefpb + Griefpb
    Max Speed with Med Life, Medium Life|Mana Leech, Hi Damage| Med Cr Blow|Deadly Strike = Beastz + Griefz




  8. #8
    IncGamers Member Axamas's Avatar
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    Re: Grief/Grief vs Grief/Beast vs Grief/Death etc

    Deadly strikes and criticals are taken in account in the calculator
    Extra strength could be.
    But other various modifier such as -XX% to Target Defense or +YY to Attack Rating are not.

    I feel all the math that can be done is only to give an approximate idea of the general average damage and of course to compare various combination of weapons.



  9. #9
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    Re: Grief/Grief vs Grief/Beast vs Grief/Death etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Spankeh View Post
    A number of things:

    1. You havent calculated the fanata damage on either beast itself, or the weapon its equipped with.
    2. 95% of Frenzy users will "max their breakpoint" to five frames per second, and will therefor boost damage output for the combos that do, but wont boost damage output to weapon combos that are already at 5ps. See my point here?
    3. What level Frenzy are you basing these figures on? Frenzy level boosts IAS every 3 levels by 3% or thereabouts.

    After playing with all these combos many many times, I can vouch for:

    Max Safety with High Life, and Hi Life|Mana Leech, Hi Damage| Hi Cr Blow|Deadly Strike = eBotdz + eDeathz
    Max Damage with Med Life, Low Life|Mana Leech, Med Safety| Low Cr Blow|Deadly Strike = Griefpb + Griefpb
    Max Speed with Med Life, Medium Life|Mana Leech, Hi Damage| Med Cr Blow|Deadly Strike = Beastz + Griefz
    Hey Spankeh.
    Thanks for the note. I read your frenzy guide to uber tristram and liked it very much.
    I would like to say that it is 'the' guide for almost any type of barb, and it's really what got me into barbs and in particular frenzy. It's very well laid out and basically makes all other guides look like rubbish.
    I am pleased to note that my griefz+beastz matches up very well with the top ubertrist builds and is as good as I expected it to be. I do use fortitude instead of enigma though.
    When I completed my first single player patriarch a few months ago, I didn't dream that I would have a character capable of soloing p8 chaos sanctuary, and now I have one that can do it with my eyes closed.
    If they ever put uber tristram in single player I am happy that I have a fully equipped character to do that, and every single item legit at that.



  10. #10
    IncGamers Member Axamas's Avatar
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    Re: Grief/Grief vs Grief/Beast vs Grief/Death etc

    Hi all and again

    Yes i missed the added %dam from Fanaticism when wielding a BEAST RW.
    So I've done all the math again.

    Parameters are :
    - %dam on rune words are medium roll
    - Frenzy lvl is 29 and Axe Mastery is 27
    - Merco (with Might aura) is lvl 91
    - base Strength is 180 (i.e. without weapon RW modifier)
    - Baba is equiped with Highlord//Gore
    - IAS comes from Weapon and Highlord (+20%) and Frency ofc.

    But note that the dam evaluation does not take in account the effect of Crushing Blow which is only significant when fighting bosses or über.

    And this is what I've found

    weapon1 // weapon2 // att/sec // dam w1 // dam w2 // dam/sec

    GRIEF ZA // GRIEF ZA // 4,54 // 6 665 // 6 665 // 60 518
    BEAST EA // GRIEF ZA // 5 // 3224 // 8293 // 57 585
    E BOTD ZA // GRIEF ZA // 4,54 // 5 128 // 6 888 // 54 553
    BEAST EA // E DEATH EA // 5 // 3 224 // 7 138 // 51 810
    GRIEF ZA // E DEATH EA // 4,16 // 6665 // 5740 // 51 605
    E BOTD ZA // // E DEATH EA // 4,54 // 5 128 // 5 931 // 50 208
    BEAST EA // E BOTD ZA // 5 // 3 311 // 6 343 // 48 270
    E BOTD ZA // E BOTD ZA // 4,54 // 5 296 // 5 296 // 48 088

    grief//grief comes first for raw dam, and low CB
    beast//grief for medium CB
    beast//death for high CB

    So using botd seems not a good choice in either case, for raw dam or max CB.
    But using botd can have an interest...botd//death is the cheapest combination as you don't have any rep cost.

    Hope this helps...



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