So after playing around with griffons/chancies/coh/wt/arach/sojs/eshutas/maras for a while i have to admit that the difference is good, hell cows drops like flies, compared to full tals which only gives -15 elr, so as magictriangle says the -elr is really important, i learned this, i had no idea to begin with, although I'm not sure if the 351% MF is worth it compared to the faster kill speed from griffons/chancies/coh/wt/arach/sojs/eshutas/maras.
Still, I'd say this build is top-of-the-line, I maxed charged bolt, lightning, chain lightning and lightning mastery, 1 point in frozen armor, 1 point in warmth, 1 point in teleport, and the rest into nova. I'm not using energy shield. I'd say this build is some of the best, if not then I don't know what is. I just have to decide between full tals and the unique build with griffons, then I'm all set. But, damn, reading through the thread again, this is by no means an easy task, because there is so many options. I'm just amazed at how much I already learned in this short period of time that I've been on this board.
Wouldn't Crescent Moon + vipermagi yield way more damage than Eschuta + COH ?
Lose 4 skill and 20%LD but gain -35% LR. Both setups can take one jewel. According to my math -35% LR is equal to about 7 skill in damage for an average monster. But for immunes which is your slowest killing, it's about 14 skill. I am basing this upon about 6% damage from +1 skill and the 20%LD from Eschuta is about 3% damage. So raw damage from Eschuta+CoH is about 27% higher.
An average monster with 75% resist, becomes -10 after Conviction, and -40 after Griffons+2die, -75 after CM. That's +175% damage compared to 140%. That's +25% compared to eschuta+CoH giving +27%.
An immune with 100% resist, becomes 83 after Conviction, and 53 after Griffons+2die, 18 after CM. That's 82% damage compared to 47%. That's +74% compared to eschuta+CoH giving +27%.
An immune with 110% resist, becomes 93 after Conviction, and 63 after Griffons+2die, 28 after CM. That's 72% damage compared to 37%. That's +94% compared to eschuta+CoH giving +27%.
To summarise damage is about the same for an average monster. For an immune, you are doing about 7 skill charms worth more damage.
The missing 10%FCR can come from amulet or magefist.
Also much easier to acquire than perfect Eschuta+die and CoH. CM looks even better if Eschuta+die are not perfect.
Upped vipermagi has about same defense as CoH AP. You will lose 30 resists, more than made for by the extra damage.
75% lightning resist is not "an average monster." Crescent moon is certainly better against immunes, but its effectiveness against non-immunes varies from completely worthless (monsters with 15% or less lightning resist) to roughly equivalent to the +4 skill (monsters with ~50% lightning resist).
If you know you're doing a run that involves a lot of broken immunes CM/vipermagi is certainly an option, but it isn't automatically better than eschuta/coh - in fact against general purpose stuff I'd argue it is just the opposite. The extra 4 points in teleport and warmth also shouldn't be underestimated, given that you don't have insight with this build.
Sorry I should have mentioned I was thinking of mainly Chaos Sanctuary where Pits Lords have 75%.
Don't forget Conviction has a limited radius and a delay before it takes effect. CM will own against non-immunes during the delay and against any out of range at other times.
I'll have to play with this. I notice with fireball I often kill before conviction even kicks in, and kill speed is always limited only by high resist/immunes so I expect CM will be generally more useful.
Cows CM will be useless. Chaos it should be good against the broken immunes. I'll try it out.
I was asking about damage, not general usefulness, and also note the casting cost is lower with more reliance on -resist offsetting tele/warmth. Perhaps a better target would be kill speed.
Update from the playing field. Firstly some corrections/comments :
full tals +3 facets gives -30ELR which is more than eschuta+Griff+2facet unless the Griff is perfect in which case it is equal. Still tals is no good, since you need to sacrifice both rings slots to make the 117FCR which is just too much.
CoH vs Viper. Defense is about the same, Viper can actually have higher 1034 vs 971.
Damage ? +2 vs +1+facet means Viper wins. You also have 30%FCR left over. Also more flexible you can socket anything.
8%DR vs 13MDR ? I prefer MDR but both are equally good IMHO.
Resists CoH wins hands down. Also 25%MF (go Enigma if you want MF). But 30mara, 20anni, 20torch, 35spirit, 35viper that's +140all +105fire. That's 70% to all but fire already, add a 5%sc. Is it worth overstacking ? Conviction should not be an issue. Either your's will cancel theirs, or theirs will cancel your and you will probably need to skeedaddle anyway.
I still think CoH is an excellent choice but really just as good as viper. Now for the leftover 30%FCR this really doesn't fit the other equipment and it leaves you with not much choice but CM.
Now back to my results from using CM with griffon. It's nice, it really rips through everything including the broken immunes you can't even tell they were broken. It also does make a huge difference before conviction kicks in, and also CL hitting out of conviction range monsters, much more than +4 skill could have made on CL, which is only about 20%. So if you use CL extensively I highly recommend CM. It's also so so cheap. Also a bit different, I'm wielding a war axe The mana cost is also about 10% less which is also important with CL.
Next step is a comparison with a decked out fire/orb, can it be built to do as well in Chaos/Baal?
Yes for pure damage. But I have runs I had to abandon due to unbreakable immunity + PI in a seal champion.
And on the way to baal you often get unbreakable groups you have to skip over which I really hate, occasionally too on river of flame.
fire/orb can kill anything with merc as backup in the extreme case of dual unbreakable. Heck even without Infinity fire/orb kills everything.
I won't be able to pump it up to the power of pure lightning, but I might be able to make it close enough to make it worth it. Fire/orb is much hardier, and carries a lot more mf. so "do as well' is not a very descriptive target. I think I mean hunt items/runes and not die as fast as possible.