Ron Paul and Jessie Ventura?

[jmervyn]

I'll just say our intelligence organizations could have done more, and they missed one.

One wonders why even greater bureaucracy is the desired solution...

With Obama recently signing terrible legislation that seems like it would be from the far right you may have a point, zooming out a bit, the current party system ensures that my rights will slowly be eroded for both sides...

It's because you suffer the common misconception of what the "right" actually is. Fascism and Communism/Socialism are both Leftist ideologies and the opposites of Libertarian philosophy. The Socialists had to discredit the Fascist cousin movement and so they conjured up some false differences to make much to-do about. Both ideologies are totalitarian, require the subjugation of the individual, &c. &c. - the theoretical difference between "The State", "The Motherland", or "The People" as the authority really doesn't matter in practice.

I'd like to think that we should want more from our politicians than the slogan, "eroding your freedoms and a much slower rate than my competitor". Just doesn't have a good ring to it.

No argument. That's why Glenn Beck didn't want McCain to win; better that the mask came off sooner rather than later. The problem is the resultant packing of the Supreme Court; Kagan's not going to recuse herself even though she was one of Obamacare's authors.

BTW since I'm teasing you about forgetting me i'll remind you my mom is/was in education and was heavily involved in union activites. We don't discuss it at dinner anymore.

Ditto and ditto (mine isn't even visiting this year). That doesn't mean it's an unresolvable challenge; Unions can be great and beneficial but they can't be allowed to be in charge as they are. Easy enough to de-legitimize automatic payment, mandatory memberships, and the ability of the goons to direct monies without vote approval.

i will say that my usual let the market work solution can't work for health care. the market can't function when someone's life is on the line.

You're wrong there. The fundamental problem is the 3rd-payer insurance model; would you use your car insurance to buy gasoline? At present, my wife is over-medical-izing her father and my son (and me, when I get down to the facts). The doctors routinely schedule multiple appointments and only resolve one or two questions each time; while the claim is that each change needs to be observed over a multi-week delay the reality is that they're bilking the insurance for multiple office visits. Does this substantiate Obama's claim of doctors deliberately and unnecessarily removing limbs? Of course not. The misconduct, however, is due to the system and Gov't influence on it.

We'll need to have our allies realize that they need to take a greater role in defending themselves. Surely you see some merit in that.

Our nominal allies, however, will not. Do you really think krischan would be willing to fork over another 15% in taxes? More likely the countries depending on U.S. military backing would try to do without a military instead of cutting back on entitlements, and disaster is the inevitable result.

I'm saying that we should ask ourselves how many nuclear submarines we really need. Can't we trim some pork?

These two statements are at odds. Yes, there's plenty of pork as well as plenty of waste that can and should be trimmed. I've first-hand experience of both. That's not the same as reducing the quantities of materiel or fighting manpower.

Now this is a place where the market can help. I imagine that if the pay was high enough, people would start to sign up to serve over there. Makes me wonder what my number would be.

The entire issue of mercenaries is worthy of a separate thread. Or reading Hammer's Slammers, as IIRC the author is a Vietnam Vet who gave the issue extensive consideration.

Again, even if i agreed with your interpretation of history--I don't want the church having that kind of power.

It's been hundreds of years since it had. The ACLU, however, is apparently empowered to change history and exterminate organizations based on the right to not be offended. Must be nice to be a communist, anti-American organization with such capability in the U.S. legal system.

Once i'm labelled as a sinner, I'm chased out of the market and the social contract no longer applies to me? yikes, that's the dystopia

As long as you're a member of the Democrat Party in good standing, you have nothing to fear. I, OTOH, am afraid to put a Gadsden flag or Christian sticker on my car because it will be keyed, my tires slashed, and often reported to the police for spurious claims of illegality. Yes, I live in the "Empire State".

[img]http://2.bp.********.com/-q2esvrJjWTM/TxGmTNd0baI/AAAAAAAAB3E/DFe_ztIW0sc/s1600/13_emperor_starwars.jpg[/img]

(Senator Charles Schumer)

If we go any deeper than that, we'll need a new thread. Let's just leave it at I'm pro-*** rights.

Whereas I'm of the opinion that the supposed queer rights movement is an attempt to establish yet ANOTHER protected class. Apparently we don't have enough division in America, and need to create several more.

That wasn't that bad, but you didn't catch this part--I'd tax any church's and non-profits too. that's where the javelins come out, but people don't realize that the non-profit tag is rife with abuse.

Interesting thing is, where "churches" such as the ones Barack, Moochelle, and Nancy Pelosi spout hateful rhetoric are ignored when your issue comes up, even more notable is the tax exempt nature of education - particularly higher education. The Ivy League organizations are filthy rich, thoroughly corrupt, and horrifically exploitative, but NOBODY ever complains about them. Yet their tax exempt status is due to their supposed role in training clergy!

Why should dividends be taxed at half the rate interest on your savings account gets taxed at? that doesn't make sense.

Well, it <does>, but that's a matter of policy rather than honesty. Taxing capital gains is supposed to decrease the interest in saving (which is one reason why we're so screwed), whereas taxing income is supposed to decrease the interest in working. How about we just agree that taxation is a negative practice no matter what the purpose, so to desire larger Gov't, swollen bureaucracy, and reductions in personal freedom should be enough to win any socialist demanding them a bullet rather than higher public office.

That's semantics. God could easily smote the devil since he/she/it is all powerful.

Actually, the verb is "smite", and that IS semantics. We don't need to get into theology, but you can go to the "free will" thread if you want to understand chaos' role in the situation.

I like to think they're good, therefore religion is superfluous. The matter hasn't really been settled though.

Yeah, it really has, and people are bad. Bad, bad, bad. It's why God came down here and tried to provide an example. In return for His loving kindness, we nailed Him to some scaffolding.

Is neither an option?

You don't know history?

You gotta like that. God didn't know, and I completely missed it when I was reading it. Never noticed.

It's not too far away from my own belief, actually. I think of God as a Consciousness resembling our context of a supercomputer. The prescient aspect is simply because He is able to grasp all things, not because He actually makes those changes or knows "for sure" what we'll do. Plus, I suspect that's where He gets the entertainment value from our existence, kind of like His personal ant farm but where He knows each of us.

I would argue that the exploding issue did not start with the new hammers and saws, in fact most of the previously built houses blew up too, and I hope one day we'll learn to build a non-explosive house before it's too late and there's nowhere to live.

You make this claim from the safety of houses built thousands of years ago, even though they're getting a bit moldy and the floors are bare. These old houses (where's Bob Vila?) may have had additions or new kitchens, but they've never been of the exploding variety. About the worst example was when the Romanesque (Catholic) house had tractors from the Conquistador Bros. that plowed up the Aztec and Inca houses, and they're now both extremely sturdy with their new Catholic brickwork.

Well, they revoked his Lib-card when he signed up with the oil companies.

Oh, no, he was always a spiteful little commie. Funny thing was, he viewed it as his role in the "green energy" business.

[Stevinator]

One wonders why even greater bureaucracy is the desired solution...
It's because you suffer the common misconception of what the "right" actually is. Fascism and Communism/Socialism are both Leftist ideologies and the opposites of Libertarian philosophy. The Socialists had to discredit the Fascist cousin movement and so they conjured up some false differences to make much to-do about. Both ideologies are totalitarian, require the subjugation of the individual, &c. &c. - the theoretical difference between "The State", "The Motherland", or "The People" as the authority really doesn't matter in practice.

Except that neither major party is libertarian. The GOP could move that direction, but they would need to shed the evangelicals, and that would lose them elections.

You're wrong there. The fundamental problem is the 3rd-payer insurance model; would you use your car insurance to buy gasoline?

No, and that's a great analogy--I usually use oil changes. The truth is no one needs insurance for doctor visits, they need it for the big stuff. The problem is the big stuff is where the market breaks. Also, older people need more health care, and are more likely to have a life threatening medical issue, but we have a totally different system for the old than for the young and working. Separating employers from health insurance would help, but people are naturally going to gravitate to the benefits of the insurance they use the most and not think as much about the devastating effects of a major medical problem. We also de-emphasize the very very bad stuff when we're considering risk vs reward. Our brains just aren't set up right to make good insurance choices. So, the market based solution solves some problems but it doesn't fix the issue on the expensive stuff--which tends to be the unfunded and most necessary stuff.

<single payer rant cut out>

At present, my wife is over-medical-izing her father and my son (and me, when I get down to the facts). The doctors routinely schedule multiple appointments and only resolve one or two questions each time; while the claim is that each change needs to be observed over a multi-week delay the reality is that they're bilking the insurance for multiple office visits. Does this substantiate Obama's claim of doctors deliberately and unnecessarily removing limbs? Of course not. The misconduct, however, is due to the system and Gov't influence on it.

And that doctors are getting better at their craft--that is learning how to be the insurance company to pay. Who's the rat and who's the researcher? And while the doctor plays mind ames witht eh insurance company, they use their white coats to pressure you into whatever they need to make the money. totally agree. I avoid doctors like I avoid car mechanics.

Our nominal allies, however, will not. Do you really think krischan would be willing to fork over another 15% in taxes? More likely the countries depending on U.S. military backing would try to do without a military instead of cutting back on entitlements, and disaster is the inevitable result.

That sounds like Krischan's problem. His country should resolve its own issues. If they really are taking our military protection and instead spending that money on entitlement programs (and I agree they are), then i'm essentially paying for the german's social security (or whatever they call it over there). No offense to Kris, but Let's cut them off. Unless we're getting something back that I'm missing...

It's been hundreds of years since it had. The ACLU, however, is apparently empowered to change history and exterminate organizations based on the right to not be offended. Must be nice to be a communist, anti-American organization with such capability in the U.S. legal system.

Not mercenaries, just pay the embassy staff more to go there until you fill all the jobs. Or better yet, let's not have a giant embassy there.

As long as you're a member of the Democrat Party in good standing, you have nothing to fear. I, OTOH, am afraid to put a Gadsden flag or Christian sticker on my car because it will be keyed, my tires slashed, and often reported to the police for spurious claims of illegality. Yes, I live in the "Empire State".

Interesting, my last territory was in an area where to be anything other than catholic was to lose business. Luckily, I was able to fake it, and by claiming Italian ancestry, they did not expect me to attend their church (the poles while still catholic, go to their own churches--i hear sometimes the Masses are in Polish). I make sure I don't drive anything with a sticker on it.

Speaking of stickers, why do families put those stickers that show the make up of their family unit on their cars? you know those little stick figures, mom dad kids and dog or whatever. What a terrible idea. Why would you want to share that information with the guy behind you in traffic? It seems like that would only entice Pedos and defeat the entire purpose of the tinted glass in minivans and SUVs.
http://www.losanjealous.com/wp-conte...al-576x363.jpg
http://3.bp.********.com/_2LJJq7_JGL...00/family1.jpg
funny rant about it...
http://canyouevencomprehend.********...-stickers.html

Whereas I'm of the opinion that the supposed queer rights movement is an attempt to establish yet ANOTHER protected class. Apparently we don't have enough division in America, and need to create several more.

Well i don't support hate crime legislation because crime is crime, and punishments be what they are (if that makes sense), but I do feel like if they're going to establish households and adopt kids and all that yadda yadda, then they get the same tax treatment and other benefits that straights get. Ideally, taxes wouldn't matter if you're married or not anyway, but there's a whole litany of other benefits that we don't always realize come along with marriage, and instead of writing a whole new law for civil unions it would be easier to get them the "M" word and let the churches decide if they are willing to marry or not. That's not the government's place.

Also interesting, when I was engaged (and living in sin), a *** friend pointed out to me that because I wasn't likely to get married in the same year (we hadn't set a date), that any money B gave me could be counted as income, so we had to get a little creative on how we split up the household bills & expenses. It wasn't the worlds most difficult thing, but simply depositing money in the mortgage account would have been easier. That never would have occurred to me, and apparently there are several other sticky situations that you wouldn't consider.

Interesting thing is, where "churches" such as the ones Barack, Moochelle, and Nancy Pelosi spout hateful rhetoric are ignored when your issue comes up, even more notable is the tax exempt nature of education - particularly higher education. The Ivy League organizations are filthy rich, thoroughly corrupt, and horrifically exploitative, but NOBODY ever complains about them. Yet their tax exempt status is due to their supposed role in training clergy!

I hear that. Though I don't want to take away their tax status simply because i don't agree with their message, that flies in the face of free speech, it certainly doesn't make me happy that I was basically paying for the chickens coming home to roost speech.

Well, it <does>, but that's a matter of policy rather than honesty. Taxing capital gains is supposed to decrease the interest in saving (which is one reason why we're so screwed), whereas taxing income is supposed to decrease the interest in working. How about we just agree that taxation is a negative practice no matter what the purpose, so to desire larger Gov't, swollen bureaucracy, and reductions in personal freedom should be enough to win any socialist demanding them a bullet rather than higher public office.

Agreed, but we still do need some revenue--quite a bit if we're ever going ot get our debt under control. We should try to keep from choosing winners and loser as much as possible.

Oh, and taxing work makes sense because the elasticity (or rather the inelasticity) of the demand for work means the effect of income/labor taxation won't deter many from working. Assuming there isn't some ready substitute (like welfare). Whereas consumption is more elastic so the "fair tax" besides being regressive, would also have a greater effect on the overall economy. You gotta tax something, so you might as well reduce the market warping effects the best that you can.

I do like the creativity of the fair tax--we need creative solutions and out of the box thinking.

Actually, the verb is "smite", and that IS semantics. We don't need to get into theology, but you can go to the "free will" thread if you want to understand chaos' role in the situation.

Smote is past tense I think....typo maybe? Maybe I'm just dumb. It all makes sense when i type it.

Yeah, it really has, and people are bad. Bad, bad, bad. It's why God came down here and tried to provide an example. In return for His loving kindness, we nailed Him to some scaffolding.

LOL, I tried to think of something to say about how bad we all are, but I can't. Perhaps I have too much FAITH in humanity? ^^

You don't know history?

According to you, i made most of it up....Let's not start that again.

It's not too far away from my own belief, actually. I think of God as a Consciousness resembling our context of a supercomputer. The prescient aspect is simply because He is able to grasp all things, not because He actually makes those changes or knows "for sure" what we'll do. Plus, I suspect that's where He gets the entertainment value from our existence, kind of like His personal ant farm but where He knows each of us.

This explains why as we control more and more of our environment--or become more godlike--our interest in reality TV increases. I should write a paper.

Since you've personalized that, I won't pick on your version of god other than to say that being some supreme being's any farm is depressing and I hope that you're wrong. I'd rather be a fluke. Many other religious people i talk to have a much more arrogant view of our importance to god (like that we're important to god).

[SaroDarksbane]

In my days as a believer, I always preferred the idea that God was omniscient not because he was some mystic oracle who could "see the future" before it arrived, but because he exists outside time completely. That is to say, he knows what you'll choose to do because from his vantage point, you've already chosen.

This fits nicely in discussions about free will when people claim that God knowing what you are going to do before you do it makes you predestined to do that thing, rather than have a choice. But if God's knowledge is based on what you've already chosen to do, there's no conflict between his omniscience and your free will.

[BobCox2]

In my days as a believer, I always preferred the idea that God was omniscient not because he was some mystic oracle who could "see the future" before it arrived, but because he exists outside time completely. That is to say, he knows what you'll choose to do because from his vantage point, you've already chosen.

This fits nicely in discussions about free will when people claim that God knowing what you are going to do before you do it makes you predestined to do that thing, rather than have a choice. But if God's knowledge is based on what you've already chosen to do, there's no conflict between his omniscience and your free will.

Hate to call stupid on you Saro but let's just say anyone with a basic understanding of Quantum Mechanic's knows better and leave it at ignorant.

He knows all the possible choices and outcomes if he knows anything and he forces the choice by being in the audience if he exists.

[SaroDarksbane]

Hate to call stupid on you Saro but let's just say anyone with a basic understanding of Quantum Mechanic's know better and leave it at ignorant.

You're applying the laws of the physical world to the hypothetical omnipotent being that created that system in the first place? :P

[BobCox2]

You're applying the laws of the physical world to the hypothetical omnipotent being that created that system in the first place? :P

They are the Only rEAlIfE clues I have to any makers works

Look how good the guys that started predicting the rains got.
/Sarcasm

[Stevinator]

what broke all the pictures associated with the buttons? Now I know not what I click (unless I mouse over)!

[BobCox2]

what broke all the pictures associated with the buttons? Now I know not what I click (unless I mouse over)!

I'm just going to ask you to derail a different thread on that.

[jmervyn]

Except that neither major party is libertarian.

Just so. Interestingly, the GOP <used to> be the Statist party back during the Civil War, but the Democrats managed to falsely hang the "RAAAACIISSSTTTTT" claim on them. What's unfortunate was the Democrat embrace of Statism, which was due to their hijack by the USSR back in the late 1950's.

The GOP could move that direction, but they would need to shed the evangelicals, and that would lose them elections.

Not at all. The evangelicals could stomach non-intervention, by comparison to their active persecution which the Democrat party loves so much. The real problem is the Progressive wing of the GOP, which both Newt and Romney represent (and Bush before them) - the big business advocates who I inaccurately label as Whigs. They're the ones who make me sick to my stomach; they claim Bill Gates as a heroic figure, they're locked into the Wall Street mechanism even though they get peanuts compared to the Democrats, they're pro-illegal-immigration because they want to keep the labor market corrupted, and so forth. Problem is, much like the Wahabis relationship to Islam, they're a relatively small percentage of the whole yet they hold the reins of power.

The problem is the big stuff is where the market breaks.

It doesn't need to. Just like regular insurance companies evade their responsibility for hurricane damages because the Gov't lets them, not because they need to. Sure, it means the SoB's won't be able to stay on their mega-yachts in the Greek islands, but do they really have a right to when they shirk their corporate responsibilities?

Separating employers from health insurance would help, but people are naturally going to gravitate to the benefits of the insurance they use the most and not think as much about the devastating effects of a major medical problem.

Again, this isn't required. Just because the yoof are stupid doesn't mean we should cater to their irresponsibility. Now, that would directly cause a bunch of yoof dying earlier due to stupidity, but I'd rather have that scenario (and the corresponding support for sound planning and responsible behavior) than the imposition of the English NHS on America (with the unavoidable "death panel" results).

No offense to Kris, but Let's cut them off. Unless we're getting something back that I'm missing...

Well, there <is> a return, just as was intended by the Marshall Plan (and which the pro-USSR Socialists hate & despise us for). The European (and Japanese) markets are often falsely labeled by those thugs as a client state, who imagine that somehow Russia and China are being cheated by the existence of better markets than socialist ones. They even have a point, in an evil, monstrous way; communist economics have to eliminate free market principals in order to survive. There can't be a way out of Hell, no escape, no resignation ala Ayn Rand. However, to believe that the European/Japanese markets can't exist unless we're propping up their socialism is sickeningly stupid of us. We do it because of our OWN socialist/progressives, just as we'll likely not pull out of the U.N. even though it has become a uniformly anti-American, anti-Israeli institution.

Why would you want to share that information with the guy behind you in traffic? It seems like that would only entice Pedos and defeat the entire purpose of the tinted glass in minivans and SUVs.

I refer to them as "kill markings"... yes, they're the latest thing in personal security stupidity.

Agreed, but we still do need some revenue--quite a bit if we're ever going ot get our debt under control. We should try to keep from choosing winners and loser as much as possible.

We're probably going to raise taxes no matter who's in control, but we ought to destroy FNMA/FMAC, outsource TSA (again) and DoE, and eliminate the Dept of Ed.

You gotta tax something, so you might as well reduce the market warping effects the best that you can.

Personally I prefer consumption taxes, not only because of the ease of enforcement and criminal prosecution, but because it encourages austerity. The problem is that we're not about to see a VAT replace the income tax; all the Progressives in DC are discussing it as an additional tax.

Smote is past tense I think....

I may be wrong, but without checking I think it's smite/smote/smitten.

Since you've personalized that, I won't pick on your version of god other than to say that being some supreme being's any farm is depressing and I hope that you're wrong. I'd rather be a fluke. Many other religious people i talk to have a much more arrogant view of our importance to god (like that we're important to god).

I think yours the far more depressing view, so we'll have to agree to disagree. I recall from clips of Ben Stein's movie an Atheist (not Dawkins) talking joyfully about the beauty of a pointless, irrelevant existence.

I'm just going to ask you to derail a different thread on that.

And I'll ask you & Saro to go derail the other thread with your predestination hijacking.

[SaroDarksbane]

Picture is too wide to insert. T_T