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  1. #31
    IncGamers Member Talga Vasternich's Avatar
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    Re: The Greatest Depression

    Quote Originally Posted by jmervyn View Post
    It's definitely overvalued, but the Fed's "fan dance" prevents people from realizing to what extent. That's one of the reasons the Fed is desperately trying to refuse opening its 'books' {/channels vdzele}.
    So THAT's why they fought those FOIA requests in court




  2. #32
    IncGamers Member BobCox2's Avatar
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    Re: The Greatest Depression

    From the Occupy the OTF thread

    Quote Originally Posted by jmervyn View Post
    Adam Carolla anti-OWS rant, apparently very NSFW.
    Spoiler
    OK
    1 - did you check the facts Jmerv?

    Even if true in the PAST

    1) He's talking about Kalifornia with the thing about the top 1% pay 50% of the tax (E.g. State Tax)
    and if you have not caught on yet this is a FReAK ZoNe in the USA. (It's the Feel Good One vs the Crap Freak zone in NY)

    2) NY get's all the save/bail it out Fed help and CA get's the lie to them, and then bend them over help from the fed.

    Face it dude, the people the talent to make real FU money (I'm not going to be able to spend it in this lifetime) do it here.
    The ones in NY are all descendents of the "Empire" Family protection services.

    I'm in the place I want to be when it all falls down because we make real value not Lie's

    Just saying...

    The Price of Taxing the Rich

    The top 1% of earners fill the coffers of states like California and New York during a boom—and leave them starved for revenue in a bust.



  3. #33
    IncGamers Member jmervyn's Avatar
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    Re: The Greatest Depression

    Quote Originally Posted by BobCox2 View Post
    1 - did you check the facts Jmerv?
    Nope. I can't even see the YouTube site. I just thought it would be worth linking.
    Quote Originally Posted by BobCox2 View Post
    Face it dude, the people the talent to make real FU money (I'm not going to be able to spend it in this lifetime) do it here.
    The ones in NY are all descendents of the "Empire" Family protection services.
    Aside from exactly how much mobility there really is in either locale, let's be honest. The OWS movement is a gaggle of Communist punks demanding punitive redistribution. They simply realize that such a message isn't going to win friends & influence people, so they've gussied that part up in TEA Party language.
    Quote Originally Posted by BobCox2 View Post
    I'm in the place I want to be when it all falls down because we make real value not Lie's

    Just saying...
    Uh, you might want to think harder about that. The Left Coast is desert/arid and there's very little subsistence-level capability (even if they try to turn the water back on and say 'to hell with the Delta Smelt'). In reality, NONE of the American zones are really balanced if we suddenly shift back to subsistence level; my family's property in the Pacific Northwest is probably the closest and there's still issues with fuel (though after the Dakotas develop their frackin' resources, probably less issues).




  4. #34

    Re: The Greatest Depression

    Quote Originally Posted by jmervyn View Post
    Berlusconi just wants to chase tail.
    That's why he's my favorite foreign politician! He's completely corrupt, everyone knows he's completely corrupt, he knows that everyone knows that he's completely corrupt, and he still just doesn't give a ****. As Douglas Adams would say, he exists not to wield ultimate power, but to draw attention away from it. He's the Zaphod Beeblebrox of our time.

    (The UK's Nigel Farage is my second favorite. He's not as much fun though because he actually makes sense.)
    The remedy is to buy junk metal off of eBay.
    Provident Metals. I've been loading up on junk silver dimes (80 more in, just today), and their price over spot is fantastic.
    Given your location, citrus is an obvious choice
    Oranges, peaches, or pecans seem likely.
    He'd never do something that stupid; it would be like monetizing our debt! He's a student of the Depression!
    Not to mention the 7.7 Trillion the fed loaned out secretly while TARP was still being discussed.
    his condo in St. Pete's isn't selling at $85K, but it would be seized if he doesn't gift it).
    Might look into putting it in a trust. There's a "vesting" period of a few years, I think, but it might pay off. Me, I'm considering creating a trust for myself anyway, just because it strips out half the hassle of buying NFA items.



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  5. #35
    IncGamers Member jmervyn's Avatar
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    Re: The Greatest Depression

    Quote Originally Posted by BobCox2 View Post
    1 - did you check the facts Jmerv?
    OK, I listened to the clip, and I disagree with your conclusions completely. The rant was about our malevolent cultural fixations. He's spitting at the envious, self-righteous, juvenile mentality of the OWS punks. I couldn't agree more with him, though I tend not to throw as many F-bombs until I <really> get worked up.

    The takeaway line (paraphrased) is that Americans used to look at a Rolls Royce and say, "that guy made it. We should emulate him." but now say "why does that guy need a Rolls Royce, when I don't have one? Let's throw a rock at it!" This evil mindset all but guarantees the creation of "the Golden Horde" (members of which I'm prepared to gun down in cold blood).
    Quote Originally Posted by SaroDarksbane View Post
    Provident Metals. I've been loading up on junk silver dimes (80 more in, just today), and their price over spot is fantastic.
    I managed to buy most of mine when the spot was around $17. Wish I'd done this well with the "IRA", where the bulk of my wealth is locked in.



    Last edited by jmervyn; 03-12-2011 at 10:36.

  6. #36
    IncGamers Member starrise's Avatar
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    Re: The Greatest Depression

    Americans used to look at a Rolls Royce and say, "that guy made it. We should emulate him."
    This is a questionable assumption making an appeal to nostalgia. It is doubtful the common rabble ever thought this way. The real difference now is that we have enabled the second mindset, which has always existed (under that "thin veneer of civilization"). You must surely believe this if you believe the golden horde hypothesis, because the quote above and the golden horde hypothesis are incompatible (especially the "thin veneer of civilization" aspect running up against the "everyone wants to emulate the materially successful").

    I do have a question: if almost everyone except the most elite thugs are dead, what makes you think silver and gold will be valuable? The only things of any value will be nourishing food, clean water, live ammunition and strong muscle (and sometimes intelligence and information if the situation calls for it). You won't be able to trade gold and silver for anything, and you might get killed for suggesting it to the thugs, who will know better than to trade their objectively useful resources for worthless metals. Especially when they can kill you and take it.

    Unless you're banking on civilization collapsing just enough so that gold and silver have value while fiat money fails, but not so much that the golden horde hypothesis becomes reality.

    Think about it this way: you're betting lots of fiat money now that the golden horde hypothesis becomes reality and you survive indefinitely. You're literally betting against yourself.



  7. #37

    Re: The Greatest Depression

    Quote Originally Posted by jmervyn View Post
    I couldn't agree more with him
    I think he falls down a bit where he seems to assume that every rich person in the US got there through hard work instead of crony corporatism, but I agree with the core of his message, which is that we have a real problem of envy in this country.
    Wish I'd done this well with the "IRA", where the bulk of my wealth is locked in.
    I stopped contributing to my 401k, because that's just silly. I'd rather have the cash to invest in precious metals.
    Quote Originally Posted by starrise View Post
    I do have a question: if almost everyone except the most elite thugs are dead, what makes you think silver and gold will be valuable?
    In a complete "Fallout-style" collapse, they probably won't be. At least not right away. That's why I also keep a good supply of non-perishable goods on hand, plenty of water, and a stock of ammo.
    Unless you're banking on civilization collapsing just enough so that gold and silver have value while fiat money fails, but not so much that the golden horde hypothesis becomes reality.
    At this point, all my bets are hedged.

    If nothing at all happens, silver is an extremely valuable industrial metal (rarer than gold on the market, by some calculations). It will hold its value.

    If the dollar takes a huge hit, but survives in an inflated state, holding precious metals protects my savings like cash doesn't.

    If the dollar collapses outright and they put up a new currency, holding precious metals is a great way to "buy in" to the new system if I need to.

    If somehow the system collapses to the point where there are people roaming the street, pillaging and destroying, I have a quantity of Pb to back up my Ag.



    Last edited by SaroDarksbane; 03-12-2011 at 17:40.
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  8. #38
    IncGamers Member starrise's Avatar
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    Re: The Greatest Depression

    True about silver. It actually has significant uses as you mentioned. Gold I'd be significantly more hesitant to buy.

    Cu coated Pb? =)

    I feel very uncomfortable being an intelligent young engineer still in school thinking a full-on fallout style collapse could happen. The other types I've got relatives I can live with/work for, etc. so that we can provide mutual support. But for me it's too risky to give up education for protection in the hopes I survive a full-on collapse. Lets just call it a period of high exposure to a relatively unlikely possibility.

    I can only hope someone will find my brains useful in the post-apocalyptic marketplace! And I don't mean tasty...



  9. #39
    IncGamers Member BobCox2's Avatar
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    Re: The Greatest Depression

    You can pick up gold and gems in the street




  10. #40
    IncGamers Member jmervyn's Avatar
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    Re: The Greatest Depression

    Quote Originally Posted by starrise View Post
    This is a questionable assumption making an appeal to nostalgia. It is doubtful the common rabble ever thought this way.
    Your first statement is sound, but the second is not. There <was> far greater respect for the rich "back in the day" than there is now, just as there was far greater respect for the working class white male father-figure (as evinced in pretty much every early TV sitcom).
    Quote Originally Posted by starrise View Post
    You must surely believe this if you believe the golden horde hypothesis, because the quote above and the golden horde hypothesis are incompatible (especially the "thin veneer of civilization" aspect running up against the "everyone wants to emulate the materially successful").
    Not really. Consider the assortment of riots; the thugs aren't trying to emulate the wealthy. They just want the trappings of that wealth.

    It is worth contemplating how much of the envious hatred is actually tangible versus emotional. I'm constantly irritated at the fawning over those in higher employment status or with greater monetary wealth, as if somehow they will deign to give random gratuity to those who are fawning over them. I happen to have inhabited every American socio-economic strata during my childhood, so I may have a jaundiced view, but the rich put their pants on one leg at a time.
    Quote Originally Posted by starrise View Post
    I do have a question: if almost everyone except the most elite thugs are dead, what makes you think silver and gold will be valuable?
    Non-fiat currency will always be valuable; humans don't stop their cultural tendencies when their societies collapse. "Junk" silver is perhaps a wiser investment than gold or the others, because you can't trade a gold Sovereign for a loaf of bread.
    Quote Originally Posted by starrise View Post
    Unless you're banking on civilization collapsing just enough so that gold and silver have value while fiat money fails, but not so much that the golden horde hypothesis becomes reality.
    IMO the 'Golden Horde' is almost a certainty, but it won't be of a lengthy duration. I live close enough to NYC that I'll be hit, as will most others living near urban centers. If you want what I consider the most likely model for our impending collapse, look no further than the blogger "FerFAL" Aguirre - he's been living it ever since Argentina's currency collapsed. The scenario he posits is partial collapse - the nation won't exactly cut it's own throat, and the rich won't allow their lives to be disrupted. Instead you simply see a cheapening of life, a savagery outside of areas protected by the rich or the Gov't, and a lot harder time getting things that are needed.



    Quote Originally Posted by SaroDarksbane View Post
    I think he falls down a bit where he seems to assume that every rich person in the US got there through hard work instead of crony corporatism, but I agree with the core of his message, which is that we have a real problem of envy in this country.
    As I replied to Bob, I think the core of his message was the only message. Anyone can recognize that there are undeserving wealthy, such as the Kennedies, Kerrys, and Bushes - but that's no reason they should be considered lower life forms.
    Quote Originally Posted by SaroDarksbane View Post
    I stopped contributing to my 401k, because that's just silly. I'd rather have the cash to invest in precious metals.
    I haven't - I just contribute to the level that doubles my investment. I'll have a hell of a lot of Siemens stock at the end of the day, but who knows if it will be worth anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by SaroDarksbane View Post
    If the dollar collapses outright and they put up a new currency, holding precious metals is a great way to "buy in" to the new system if I need to.
    I think this is the most likely option - "New Bucks" or something - and I expect that I'll be paid in them. But that doesn't mean the rest of the population will be, so the criminal behavior will skyrocket (and I'm quite surprised we haven't seen that a while ago).
    Quote Originally Posted by SaroDarksbane View Post
    If somehow the system collapses to the point where there are people roaming the street, pillaging and destroying, I have a quantity of Pb to back up my Ag.
    The "Horde" concept assumes an end-state of roving company-sized units. I think this is very unlikely. OTOH, I expect squad-sized gangs to be the norm, and as I'm the only true combatant in my family unit I'd have a hell of a time holding off a squad.




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