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  1. #271
    IncGamers Member jmervyn's Avatar
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    Re: The Greatest Depression

    Guys, I'm both still very sick and completely tapped out at work. I'm not going to be posting much until one or both are over.

    STOP CHEERING!
    Quote Originally Posted by krischan View Post
    What's called a depression may actually be the way things are supposed to be under normal circumstances.
    Rather, kris, modern Western civilization is a very rare bird, indeed, and Westerners have not bothered to consider how fragile it can be in their never-ending clamour for free stuff. "the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short." is what voters in both Europe and the U.S. unintentionally demanded, and that's just what they're going to get.
    Quote Originally Posted by LozHinge the Unhinged View Post
    So, Kris, if we all eat horse meat long enough
    Horse isn't that bad. 'course, it isn't like you John Bull types have enough horses left after the Royals munch up the Household Cavalry.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nazdakka View Post
    "My side lost an election. Therefore, civilisation will collapse."
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurin View Post
    Yeah, that's pretty much it except that it's not a joke anymore. The "other side" has leapt joyously into the pit of utter corruption and insanity.
    Glurin is spot on, Naz. I didn't really give a damn about Romney, and I was a registered Democrat for many more years than I was ever registered Republican.

    It's that there's never going to be two-party rule in the U.S. again until post-collapse. Furthermore, the socialists are now trying to engineer the removal of the opposition's remaining capability (debt limit and filibuster). I don't really consider one-party rule a "good thing", though I know you do (or used to). There's names for people who think one-party rule is brilliant; you should look them up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurin View Post
    It wasn't that long ago that most people knew that trying to solve a problem by feeding the cause of the problem was at best a bad idea and completely irrational. As they say, "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." The reelection of Obama proved that this is no longer the case. Handing a man dying of thirst a giant salt lick has somehow become an accepted or even encouraged solution to his problem. There's only one place that this kind of "reasoning" leads, and it isn't good.
    You're encroaching on my dramatic hyperbole, Glurin.

    However, this polling indicates the obvious - American socialist Democrats are absolute hypocrites, but they're fine with that. After all, as seen on this forum, the Taxed Enough Already Party (TEA, for the spelling impaired) isn't actually about the fact that the Gov't borrows $0.43 of every $1.00 spent (up from $0.30 only a couple of years ago), but is actually some sort of cult-driven sexual-repression fantasy about Sarah Palin dressed in a nun's habit and shooting Hispanic children for their skins.
    Quote Originally Posted by BobCox2 View Post
    Meh!
    Bob, I owe you an answer (a dressing down, actually) but I won't be able to provide it very soon. Forgive?
    Quote Originally Posted by BobCox2 View Post
    Somehow I get the feeling he's not going to be hurting.
    Agreed; Stalin DAMN him for earning money himself, rather than the right way - chiseling it from taxpayers.
    Quote Originally Posted by BobCox2 View Post
    I think The Rich Republicans are going to play hardball and let us all go over the fiscal cliff, try to wait it out and broadcast it's the Dem's fault message for 2 years, then try to clean up in the next election with plenty of advertising money.
    Uh, yah, Bob, about that - the "unbalanced" plan the GOP offered was drawn from the President's Simpson-Bowles commission. You need to figure out who's actually playing games here.


    (I know you don't think conservative sites are reputable, so here's CNN)
    Quote Originally Posted by BobCox2 View Post
    Get ready for hard times, and if they get too hard, a revolution.
    Oh, it's coming. Not a revolution per se, though - just the violence that accompanies social collapse. Too many people expecting to live off of others, too many Leftists knowing how to 'fix' society, yet with not enough of the social compact Christianity used to provide to keep civil order.
    Quote Originally Posted by krischan View Post
    Obama probably jumped for joy about the catch-22 element of the fiscal cliff and waited eagerly when it drew nearer and nearer.
    Exactly. The ability to force the GOP to betray their allies is like Progressive candy, made all the sweeter by the understanding that Bob's mainstream media will STILL blame them, either for the cliff or not doing <enough>.


    Bottom line - the President and the Democrats figure they have the GOP under their boot. They're going to happily stomp until they wear out the hobnails. They honestly don't give a rat-feck about the nation, as they have established; they've been recognizable for several years as Ayn Rand's "looters".

    There's two GOP paths I've heard discussed that make sense to me; "Let it Burn" and "Present". "Let it Burn" is our destination anyway, but I don't know that the GOP should, in good conscience, let the socialists go all-out in their efforts - which as I mentioned include an Imperial Presidency, unlimited debt ceiling, stimuli forever, and the Legislative Branch becoming rubber-stamps. Instead, voting "Present" and forcing the socialists to actually do their feckin' job and defend their insanity, which they are not having to do thanks to the media, would prevent the "Bush's Fault" refrain when the shyte inevitably hits the fan.

    EDIT -
    Spoiler
    Last edited by jmervyn; 05-12-2012 at 13:25.

  2. #272

    Re: The Greatest Depression

    Quote Originally Posted by Nazdakka View Post
    "My side lost an election. Therefore, civilisation will collapse."
    "Goldman Sachs won another election. Therefore, civilization will continue it's rapid decline."

    FTFY

  3. #273
    IncGamers Member Stevinator's Avatar
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    Re: The Greatest Depression

    It's that there's never going to be two-party rule in the U.S. again until post-collapse. Furthermore, the socialists are now trying to engineer the removal of the opposition's remaining capability (debt limit and filibuster).
    I think you're going a little overboard here.

    Oh, it's coming. Not a revolution per se, though - just the violence that accompanies social collapse. Too many people expecting to live off of others, too many Leftists knowing how to 'fix' society, yet with not enough of the social compact Christianity used to provide to keep civil order.
    Bull****. i think people are becoming more tolerant, nicer, and more willing to chip in together with others. I think the idea that government has to do this for us is a mistake, but it comes from the idea that we should help the people who are having a tougher time than us. That's not the bad thing, the bad thing isn't that we've lost our values, it's that we don't think we can accomplish things on our own and require the government to help.

    baseline chart
    The baseline chart is scary when you look at it, and it's important to understand, but even the most conservative economists still think the money supply should grow at pace with the growth of the economy (or averaged rate of growth). I'd like to see a chart that has future growth based in real dollars. it would still be scary, but I think it would be more accurate. The reason i think this is important is that we should understand if we were doing it right, government spending should increase each year anyway--the problem is that it's increasing faster than it's supposed to, and has been doing this for a long long time. I think we should be talking about government as a percentage of GDP, how even the keynesians aren't supporting the counter cyclical reduction in spending, and how since we've overspent, what the slope of government spending should look like, and how long it has to be below the rate of growth until we find ourselves back where it should be. Also, what IS that magical size relationship? Clearly most people think we're too big now, but what should our target be? It seems we're in a growth phase now, so major reductions in spending should start kicking in through the next few years. How much cutting can we get away with without causing too big of a ripple through the system? How long is it going to take to get back to that magic amount?

    Then, after we have that ideal position, we need to look at our priorities and benefits of the programs that are absolutely most important, and do those first.

    Unfortunately, we don't managed our expenses in this way. We manage it completely in an ad hoc sort of way, and that's from where (whence?) the overspending comes.

  4. #274
    IncGamers Member Glurin's Avatar
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    Re: The Greatest Depression

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator
    Bull****. i think people are becoming more tolerant, nicer, and more willing to chip in together with others.
    ......

    Ok, which planet do you come from again?

    Given the rest of your statement, I think you might be confused as to which side the violence comes from. You may want to read up a bit on the recent history of Greece.

  5. #275
    IncGamers Member Stevinator's Avatar
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    Re: The Greatest Depression

    What violence are you talking about?

    Despite Jmerv's attempts to prove otherwise, neither of the major protests, either Occupy or Tea Party, were violent.

    Wars have become more localized and there's an ever greater focus on avoiding collateral damage. In fact, it's now a habit of our enemies to hide in or near hospitals and other unsavory targets so we won't hit them. The world was a more dangerous place when my grandfather was my age (WW2), and when my dad was my age (Vietnam/cold war).

    Violent crime is down:
    350px-Property_Crime_Rates_in_the_United_States.svg.png

    well, since 1980 anyway...

    Are you talking about the metaphorical violence of taxation itself? Well, we're running close to the lowest top marginal tax rates we've seen in a long long time.
    (this was too big to embed)
    http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/...%20Revenue.jpg

    The point is, this depressing belief that it's all over because the guy you didn't like won (when I would argue the alternative was little different), is a bit silly. Yeah, you'd be happier if Romney had won. Okay. But what's really going to happen? Do you think that suddenly people are going to flee from the dollar? Hate to break it to you, but where else would they go? The Dollar is the safest place to put your money, and America is so great that people flock here illegally, to the extent that half the country thinks it's a major problem. When the tea party threatened to not raise the debt ceiling and default, people actually flocked to treasuries because when you're scared, that's where you go.

    Yes, we spend too much (Romney would have too). Yes, i don't think they'll fix it, fiscal cliff or no. But to say that society will collapse because the wrong populist won the election, well, that's overboard. Have some perspective. What will really happen is we'll see is the economy come back, people will feel good again and to sap the debt away instead of fiscal responsibility, they'll just inflate it away slowly, and the cycle will repeat again. maybe one day, we'll figure out how to make the government more efficient, and stop the creeping loss of privacy and liberty, but probably not. Your kids won't even know what they were missing. it's a little sad, because that's not the direction we'd like to see the country go, but it's a corporatocracy, so you don't get a say. Don't bother building a bunker. Just say, well that didn't work, let's reassemble and fight again the next time. Maybe if we stop pissing off various constituencies we could win and overspend on something different next time.

  6. #276
    IncGamers Member BobCox2's Avatar
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    Re: The Greatest Depression

    Quote Originally Posted by jmervyn View Post
    Furthermore, the socialists are now trying to engineer the removal of the opposition's remaining capability (debt limit and filibuster). I don't really consider one-party rule a "good thing", though I know you do (or used to). There's names for people who think one-party rule is brilliant; you should look them up.]
    Well when the idiots in the GOP Start Filibustering themselves your have to admit they are both idiots and abusing the filibuster.

  7. #277
    IncGamers Member Glurin's Avatar
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    Re: The Greatest Depression

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    The point is, this depressing belief that it's all over because the guy you didn't like won (when I would argue the alternative was little different), is a bit silly. Yeah, you'd be happier if Romney had won. Okay. But what's really going to happen? Do you think that suddenly people are going to flee from the dollar? Hate to break it to you, but where else would they go?
    And that's exactly the point. Where else can they go and what happens when they do? It's never been a particularly good thing for a nation when their currency collapses. But what happens when something as powerful and global as the U.S. Dollar collapses? You obviously haven't noticed that people are already fleeing from the dollar, and I'm not talking about small investors.

    I doubt Romney would have changed things much, to be honest. But I would have taken it as a sign that the people are at least involved enough that we weren't completely doomed to this corruption just yet. Ever had to work with someone who's job performance was so abysmal that you couldn't help wondering each and every day why he hasn't been fired yet? Well, that's Obama. His sales figures are in the tank, he mouths off to the customers, he regularly destroys tens of thousands of dollars in inventory, he rarely shows up for work, if he does show up then he's also drunk, and he just got a promotion. WTF?!?!

    The Dollar is the safest place to put your money, and America is so great that people flock here illegally, to the extent that half the country thinks it's a major problem. When the tea party threatened to not raise the debt ceiling and default, people actually flocked to treasuries because when you're scared, that's where you go.
    And we raised the debt ceiling anyway and still managed to get downgraded. It was in fact one of the reasons we were downgraded. A clear indication that we have no intention of ever paying off our debt and every intention of making it worse.

    Yes, we spend too much (Romney would have too). Yes, i don't think they'll fix it, fiscal cliff or no. But to say that society will collapse because the wrong populist won the election, well, that's overboard. Have some perspective. What will really happen is we'll see is the economy come back, people will feel good again and to sap the debt away instead of fiscal responsibility, they'll just inflate it away slowly, and the cycle will repeat again. maybe one day, we'll figure out how to make the government more efficient, and stop the creeping loss of privacy and liberty, but probably not. Your kids won't even know what they were missing. it's a little sad, because that's not the direction we'd like to see the country go, but it's a corporatocracy, so you don't get a say. Don't bother building a bunker. Just say, well that didn't work, let's reassemble and fight again the next time. Maybe if we stop pissing off various constituencies we could win and overspend on something different next time.
    Sorry, but the U.S. was at that particular stage decades ago. We're now in the "approaching point of no return" stage, if we haven't passed it already. You can't just keep pushing back the consequences. Eventually, you have to pay the piper. Also, somehow the idea of using my entire life's savings as wallpaper because it's been inflated so much that that's all it's good for just doesn't appeal to me.

    Imagine you're on a freeway and the gas gauge is slowly dropping. You're arguing we still have half a tank, so we can afford to skip the next exit. I'm telling you that the needle is on E and that sign just ahead reads "Last exit for 500 miles." The trouble here is that you haven't even bothered to look up from your video game to see what the signs actually say, as indicated by your statements about violence. Although I was referring to all forms of violence, I once again urge you to look into Greece and see who it was that got physically violent when they weren't going to get their way.

  8. #278
    IncGamers Member jmervyn's Avatar
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    Re: The Greatest Depression

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    I think you're going a little overboard here.
    Of course you do; you can't face reality. You'll still be talking fuzzy bunny crap when you're one of the Fallout-style marauders. It's not like this is anything new; people justify anything rather than face their own GUILT.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    Bull****. i think people are becoming more tolerant, nicer, and more willing to chip in together with others. I think the idea that government has to do this for us is a mistake, but it comes from the idea that we should help the people who are having a tougher time than us. That's not the bad thing, the bad thing isn't that we've lost our values, it's that we don't think we can accomplish things on our own and require the government to help.
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurin View Post
    ......

    Ok, which planet do you come from again?
    Do I still need to rip Steve's delusions to shreds? The "tolerant, nicer, and more willing to chip in" is so feckin' insane that it actually brightened my day. Our society is becoming far more technologically skilled and safe. It is at the same time far less tolerant, far more hostile, and far more self-absorbed/less altruistic than any point since at least at least the early Industrial Revolution, and probably far before then. You and your Atheists hatred of "religion" saw to that, and Bismarck's Progressive dependency plans took care of the rest.
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurin View Post
    Given the rest of your statement, I think you might be confused as to which side the violence comes from. You may want to read up a bit on the recent history of Greece.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    What violence are you talking about?

    Despite Jmerv's attempts to prove otherwise, neither of the major protests, either Occupy or Tea Party, were violent.
    Your sheer insanity proudly displayed yet again; yet your refusal to comprehend is not due to a lack of evidence. The TEA Party was non-violent, and markedly so. Occupy Wall Street was quite violent, and DELIBERATELY so (31% endorsed open violence as the OWS agenda), in part because it's the same passel of violent Communists that routinely protest the G8 and such. You may be pretending that because very few people were actually killed, somehow that meant the claims of "non-violence" were accurate, but that's beyond stupid. Glurin is correct yet again, in that the Left is going to ramp up in the future, just as seen in most Fascist/Socialist takeovers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    I'd like to see a chart that has future growth based in real dollars. it would still be scary, but I think it would be more accurate.
    You'd dump in your pants. Bernanke & Turbotax Tim are deliberately tubing the dollar, which means the growth will be FAR worse thanks to the damage to currency value.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    Clearly most people think we're too big now,
    Wrong. You and your socialist pals think we need even bigger Gov't, and you just handed the keys to the drunk driver for the 2nd time in 4 years.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    It seems we're in a growth phase now, so major reductions in spending should start kicking in through the next few years. How much cutting can we get away with without causing too big of a ripple through the system? How long is it going to take to get back to that magic amount?
    Since you're so deluded as to be beyond reaching, I'll just say that self-perpetuation is the nature of bureaucracy. Your claims of a "magic amount" are stupid; the Progressives are now throwing caution to the wind, and there's no way they step back. When I say Progressives, I mean of course both the people I despise (Fascist Left) and the ones you imagine to be the majority of the GOP (Whig "right", like McCain and Boehner).

    The GOP Progressives won't even take the knife away from their own throats. Instead, they're gutting those who are conservative AKA responsible, so that they don't have resistance from within the party.

  9. #279
    IncGamers Member jmervyn's Avatar
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    Re: The Greatest Depression

    Supplemental shredding:
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    Wars have become more localized and there's an ever greater focus on avoiding collateral damage. In fact, it's now a habit of our enemies to hide in or near hospitals and other unsavory targets so we won't hit them. The world was a more dangerous place when my grandfather was my age (WW2), and when my dad was my age (Vietnam/cold war).
    Apparently it hasn't occurred to you that there hasn't been a major war since then? Furthermore, those limited wars we've seen have been far more brutal - just ask the Dutch U.N. peacekeepers in Bosnia.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    Violent crime is down:
    350px-Property_Crime_Rates_in_the_United_States.svg.png

    well, since 1980 anyway...
    Meaningless. The last severe economic troubles our nation had were in 1979. Just because we haven't seen a corresponding rise, says more about efficient police than about the populace. People are far more likely to be scofflaws than in times past; after all, you atheists don't give a feck about social order unless it's to your benefit, right? The "common good" is just a nice phrase to invoke when demanding free stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    The point is, this depressing belief that it's all over because the guy you didn't like won (when I would argue the alternative was little different), is a bit silly. Yeah, you'd be happier if Romney had won. Okay.
    I've already expressed my lack of interest in Rombot, and that the only reason I really abhor Obama's election is that he's going to stack the courts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    But what's really going to happen? Do you think that suddenly people are going to flee from the dollar? Hate to break it to you, but where else would they go?
    This is one of the most stupid, yet common, beliefs: that Obama holding a gun to his own head will somehow ensure that other countries continue to give him cash. If the markets decide the risk is too great, they'll happily help him pull the trigger.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    The Dollar is the safest place to put your money, and America is so great that people flock here illegally, to the extent that half the country thinks it's a major problem. When the tea party threatened to not raise the debt ceiling and default, people actually flocked to treasuries because when you're scared, that's where you go.
    Tell me again how you Progressives despise irrationality and "faith based thinking".
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    But to say that society will collapse because the wrong populist won the election, well, that's overboard. Have some perspective.
    I do. You don't. California is so far past Greece that it's painful to observe, and the U.S. is leveraged to a far worse degree than Europe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    What will really happen is we'll see is the economy come back, people will feel good again and to sap the debt away instead of fiscal responsibility, they'll just inflate it away slowly, and the cycle will repeat again.
    No. It won't. The economy isn't 'coming back' and the people claiming it is are vile Krugman-scale liars. I'd tell you to remember sometime how laughable your majickal thinking is since you hate Christians so deeply for the same thing, but it won't really make me happy even if I'm still alive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevinator View Post
    Your kids won't even know what they were missing. it's a little sad, because that's not the direction we'd like to see the country go, but it's a corporatocracy, so you don't get a say. Don't bother building a bunker. Just say, well that didn't work, let's reassemble and fight again the next time. Maybe if we stop pissing off various constituencies we could win and overspend on something different next time.
    This part has some truth to it - the children who are being taught to understand what's happening, like my own, will understand and be the seeds for the recovery. However, there's nothing that will stop the tailspin at this point; there are now too many of the "Ask not what I can do for my country" crowd that will demand free stuff while the civilization burns. You're one of them.
    Quote Originally Posted by BobCox2 View Post
    Well when the idiots in the GOP Start Filibustering themselves your have to admit they are both idiots and abusing the filibuster.
    Not sure I've ever claimed otherwise. You'll recall one of my favorite P.J. O'Rourke quotes?

  10. #280
    IncGamers Member Nazdakka's Avatar
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    Re: The Greatest Depression

    Quote Originally Posted by Glurin View Post
    And that's exactly the point. Where else can they go and what happens when they do? It's never been a particularly good thing for a nation when their currency collapses. But what happens when something as powerful and global as the U.S. Dollar collapses? You obviously haven't noticed that people are already fleeing from the dollar, and I'm not talking about small investors.
    Muh? From my seat, the dollar appears to be steady at about its usual price, about $1.60 to the pound and $1.30 to the euro. It was much weaker 8-10 years ago, when I could get $2 for a pound. Inflation is at ~2%, nothing happening there. Your post-crash recovery has been pretty good, certainly better than Europe's. What evidence do you have to suggest that the dollar will collapse?

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