Attributes vs Attribute effects?

[pmpch]

I've done some updates on said post. As far as tests from beta testers go (what I have heard) everything concerning damage stacking is multiplied. Wizard Damage% and Damage% might be an exception, not really sure if this has been tested.

[HardRock]

Nice work, and thanks for those formulas Pmpch.

I've looked at the current item database to see what's the maximum amount of Armor we can possibly get and I got 4414, which would be about about 58% physical DR at level 60. That number only includes armors, jewelry and shields though and not weapons. With Flesh Tearer or Shenlong's Endless Wave we can easily have over 9000 Armor.

Later, I plan to look at resistances as well.

[pmpch]

There are quite a few abilities and passives that give armor% boosts, such as Warcry.

[HardRock]

Heh, somehow I forgot about those.

Anyway, 50% physical DR looks easily achievable.

[pmpch]

Quite a few 2-set bonuses give 140 defense right now. Likely those are only placeholders though, but maybe not. Gemslots are another source of Defense. The nice thing is, you can exchange Vitality/Defense if your gear changes to always achieve the ideal EHP% rating.

[Jedouard]

To go back to what the OP said about overlapping...

Regarding Defense, if the DR% formulas preserve the same formulae in final release, then Defense returns less DR% per point the higher you get. So deciding whether to take an item with 100 Defense or an item that directly gives 10% DR depends on how much Defense you already have at your character level and/or enemy level. (No one knows how enemy level will factor into actual DR% because the formulae may be taking for a given that enemy level is equal to character level.) With the current formula for Defense-to-DR%, at level 60, an additional 100 Defense would benefit your char more than a flat 10% DR if you already had 300 Defense (going from 300 Defense to 400 Defense = 11.2% DR) but if you already had 325, the direct 10% DR does more (325 to 425 = 9.91% DR).

In other words, they overlap in function, but not so much in intensity.

[Strill]

To go back to what the OP said about overlapping...

Regarding Defense, if the DR% formulas preserve the same formulae in final release, then Defense returns less DR% per point the higher you get. So deciding whether to take an item with 100 Defense or an item that directly gives 10% DR depends on how much Defense you already have at your character level and/or enemy level. (No one knows how enemy level will factor into actual DR% because the formulae may be taking for a given that enemy level is equal to character level.) With the current formula for Defense-to-DR%, at level 60, an additional 100 Defense would benefit your char more than a flat 10% DR if you already had 300 Defense (going from 300 Defense to 400 Defense = 11.2% DR) but if you already had 325, the direct 10% DR does more (325 to 425 = 9.91% DR).

In other words, they overlap in function, but not so much in intensity.

Your overall point is right, but your numbers are completely wrong. You're assuming that DR% bonuses directly add to the DR% bonus from Defense, which is flat-out ridiculous as it would easily allow you to achieve 100% damage reduction, and would completely undermine the entire point of making the EHP from Defense scale linearly.

Far more likely is the possibility that DR% stacks multiplicitavely with other bonuses, making 10% damage reduction equivalent to an 11.1% multiplier to max EHP and healing.

Upon setting up the following equation:

(EHP with +100 DEF) / (Current EHP) = EHP increase from 10% DR

and putting it into Wolfram Alpha, I find that +100 Defense equals 10% DR when Defense is 900 points over the Defense threshold.

Also, I strongly suspect that the damage reduction from Defense is based on the attacker's level, not the player's level, as basing it on the player's level would make low level characters outfitted with high level Defense gems almost unkillable by high level monsters.

[Jedouard]

Your overall point is right, but your numbers are completely wrong. You're assuming that DR% bonuses directly add to the DR% bonus from Defense, which is flat-out ridiculous as it would easily allow you to achieve 100% damage reduction, and would completely undermine the entire point of making the EHP from Defense scale linearly.

There's a difference between the numbers being wrong and the assumptions being different. My assumptions are different and according to the info we have, the numbers are correct for those assumptions.

Moreover, the assumption I made - on-item DR% being direct and not multiplicative - undermines nothing. There are currently no items that offers direct DR%. (At least, I haven't found any.) This means that if we ever do see it, it could either only a few item types and a max equippable total of, say 5% such that a direct DR% would not break the game.

Regarding the linear EHP, giving a direct 5DR% spread out over a few item types and at a trade off for other attributes and modifiers and on a minuscule scale would not destroy the linear EHP scale. Players would still have to follow it for the vast majority of their DR%, but for those willing to make the trade off, direct DR% would mean a very limited boost outside of the linear EHP.

Far more likely is the possibility that DR% stacks multiplicitavely with other bonuses, making 10% damage reduction equivalent to an 11.1% multiplier to max EHP and healing.

It is not far more likely. I think both assumptions - yours and mine - about this hypothetical modifier have merit depending on what they could do with such item modifiers. In order for my assumption about this non-existent modifier to be true, the maximum of, say, 5% lest it become easy to make invincible characters. It is not hard for the Devs to say. "These four item types can have direct DR% modifier, but if they do, they cannot have these modifiers and must have fewer than X sockets. And the direct DR% modifier can never amount to more than 1% on these three item types, 2% on this item type." In other words, the devs would determine what the maximum DR% according to possible equippable Defense is, and then determine how much more DR% they would be willing to give and at what trade off.

In order for your assumption to be true, the devs would have to do a lot more work in order to figure out balancing since they would be giving players the ability to change what was supposed to be a linear EHP formula that was a constant for every class. Instead of just looking at what is currently available and what they would be willing to allow on top of that and at what trade off, they would need to look at how the multiplier changes what is currently available according to all the various combinations. It is a lot easier to balance the game when you say, "Defense translates to this EHP for everyone, you may stack 5DR% on top of that at the cost of X, Y and Z" versus "Defense translates to anything within this range of EHP depending on what multiplicative modifier you have and we need to figure out what cost these ranges should require." I think this just takes a lot more work.

I will say, though, that if they were ever to go the route you are discussing, then they would need to ensure the wording makes it clear (something like "multiplies Damage Reduction % by X%).

Also, I strongly suspect that the damage reduction from Defense is based on the attacker's level, not the player's level, as basing it on the player's level would make low level characters outfitted with high level Defense gems almost unkillable by high level monsters.

I think this hypothesis is likely. There needs to be something, at least, to take enemy level into consideration. It could be that the character level in the formulae we are using is actually enemy level assumed to be equal to character level.

[galzohar]

Having direct DR% will break the linear behavior. Sure if it's small enough it won't break it badly, but probably enough for Blizzard to not go there. They have gone a long way to make stats stack in a linear fashion, and there is absoultely no reason for them to do something stupid and break it, especially considering no current known D3 mechanics do something of this nature.