Attributes vs Attribute effects?

[LittlePeon]

Sorry if there is already a topic about this, but i could find no info on these boards, the wiki or blizzards official forums.


Since everyone is talking about the newly released items and the lack of diverse affixes, I wondered if there is a real difference between an attribute and the effect of an attribute?

There are the four attributes:
- Attack
- Precision
- Defense
- Vitality

each correlating to an effect:
- Attack = %damage
- Precision = %critical hit
- Defense = &damage reduced
- Vitality = hit points

So looking at the items, you see some affixed that add to one or all attributes. Then there are affixes that add to one of the "attribute effects", like + HP.

But what i am wondering, is there even a difference between the two? Or are these just two ways of saying exactly the same?
Does every attribute really only contribute to one effect? Because then the actual number of affixes on items further decreases, because the exact same effect could be granted through another affix.

While in D1/D2 Strenght helped me increase my damage, it also allowed me to wear other items. If in D3 Attack only increases damage, then there is no reason for having that attribute at all, since you could express the same thing through %damage.

Dexterity increased chance to block, added damage to ranged weapons and allowed to carry bows. Now we have Precision and it adds exactly one thing: %critical hit. Again why have Precision if its just a synonyme for %critical hit?

Am i missing something here? Or is this really just a redundancy?
Would love it if somebody could enlighten me.

[galzohar]

It's quite unclear how the modifiers that add stuff similar to the current attributes relate to the attributes themselves... We'll have to test it when it's out, if it even stays that way...

[LittlePeon]

Hmm the lack of info is highly frustrating...
The only reasoni could imagine why there is an attribute and an attribute effect is that attribute effects scale differently for different characters.
Much like energy did in D2, since it gave different amounts of mana for different characters - so Attack could give more %damage for a Barb then a Wiz. But that would pretty much go against blizzards attempts to simplify the UI, since you would need to know when an attribute is more effective for a character then an attribute effect....

[starrise]

As far as attack/damage increase%, those are probably freely interchangeable on a 1 to 1 basis for every class. The rest get more complicated.

The exchange rate from precision to critical hit% most likely decreases as level increases, so critical hit% on items becomes more valuable relative to precision (1 to 1) as you level up. More accurately, it probably depends on enemy level, and higher enemies are harder to crit against. Unless precision also adds to critical hit damage increase %, then its much more complex.

The exchange rate from defense to damage reduction% decreases as defense increases, and increases as armor increases (should be anyway...) so high armor and high defense characters benefit more from damage reduction% increases. This point is probably moot as I haven't seen flat damage reduction%, only armor and defense. The armor/defense formula hasn't been figured out as far as I know, so its difficult to say with certainty which is more valuable at a given armor/defense level. It may also depend on the level of enemies being fought with higher levels doing a greater % of their output damage as life to you.

The exchange rate from vitality to hp undoubtedly changes from class to class. Characters who get a lot of hp from vitality will benefit more from 1 vit than 1 hp.

So you can see, with the exception of attack, its probably more complex than you may have originally given credit for. Hope this helps! =)

Edit: Ah sorry, it just occurred to me that %damage may affect the weapon's base damage. So a 100 damage weapon with 30% added damage does 130 damage. Then the 130 damage goes through the attack formula. If you have 100 attack, then it does 260 damage. If they were equivalent, then the weapon would do (1+0.3+1)*100 = 230 damage. So they are not equivalent at all! My mistake.

For clarification and tl;dr

For itemization, stats are functionally different than directly adding to the stats relevant effect because of the complexity of various calculations, and may vary from level to level and class to class.

[LittlePeon]

Thanks alot starrise!

It seemed rather reasonable to expect the different HP gain through Vitality.
The other three attributes didn't make much sense to me though, but your arguments make it seem rather obvious that there will be some differences between attributes and their effects.

Wish we would get more information from Blizzard about those rather basic things, then getting to see some random itemstats...

Thanks again!

[galzohar]

Quick guess for armor formula:

EHP = HP * (1 + C * Armor)

Where C is some constant, probably player and/or monster level-dependent.

Damage reduction = 1 - HP/EHP = (C * Armor) / (1 + C * Armor)


% damage increase can really be anything. Maybe equivalent to %damage increase on weapon (which is incredibly powerful), or equivalent to attack (which is not nearly as powerful since you have much more of it and 1 attack adds 1% damage at all levels).

% crit increase (not precision increase) actually exists? Wouldn't make sense to include it when there is the precision stat that does just that - add crit. Then again %damage doesn't make sense either when not on the weapon, at least not when having more than a few %.

Flat dodge% we don't and won't see, just like we don't and won't see +%damage reduction or +%resistances. It makes it impossible to make the stats scale in a more linear fashion, and Blizzard seems to have learned the lesson in how to make stats scale reasonably (see: Dodge stacking in WoW pre-WotLK where later on it got "nerfed" to have linear returns, and negative resistances in high difficulties in D2 which we all know was a crappy mechanic needed to balance out the better gear you're getting, which is no longer needed due to the transition to ratings that have a different effect against different level monsters).

[starrise]

No trouble. Do keep in mind that my ideas aren't guaranteed to be the case, but they seem logical given what I've heard, and what makes sense based on similar games.

Now, on the other hand, I agree with galzohar in that crit% and dodge% don't really make sense for proper scaling, because they don't "play nice" with the stat dependencies. Crit%/dodge% depend both on a relevant stat and on (character and/or enemy) level, and so flat bonuses break that formula by bypassing it. Bypassing formulas like that make it more difficult for Blizzard to balance things server side, and this way hopefully won't have to change itemization to change balance. Instead they can alter a formula for calculations, thereby nerfing/buffing every player at the same time, rather than only those few who have a particular item. Fairness abounds!

So we've got:

Enhanced Damage: alters weapon damage directly on the tooltip.
Attack: takes in weapon damage and spits out actual damage before monster defense.

Precision: affects crit chance (and crit damage increase maybe?).

Defense: affects all incoming damage (and dodge chance maybe?).

Vitality: affects hp.

[nicro007]

Hit Points = Level * 4 + Vitality * 4 + 36

[HardRock]

The exchange rate from precision to critical hit% most likely decreases as level increases, so critical hit% on items becomes more valuable relative to precision (1 to 1) as you level up.

The exchange rate does decrease as you level up. I tested this while leveling a Wizard to level 60 on an emulated server. If you'd like to see the progression I can post a table with my results.

More accurately, it probably depends on enemy level, and higher enemies are harder to crit against.

Most likely this is the case, since the tooltip includes monster level as well.

Unless precision also adds to critical hit damage increase %, then its much more complex.

As far as I know, Precision doesn't affect critical damage, even though its tooltip lists it.

[Strill]

As far as attack/damage increase%, those are probably freely interchangeable on a 1 to 1 basis for every class. The rest get more complicated.

My understanding was that the other effects stacked multiplicitavely with other bonuses, rather than additively as attributes stack with themselves.

Quick guess for armor formula:

EHP = HP * (1 + C * Armor)

Where C is some constant, probably player and/or monster level-dependent.

Damage reduction = 1 - HP/EHP = (C * Armor) / (1 + C * Armor)


% damage increase can really be anything. Maybe equivalent to %damage increase on weapon (which is incredibly powerful), or equivalent to attack (which is not nearly as powerful since you have much more of it and 1 attack adds 1% damage at all levels).

% crit increase (not precision increase) actually exists? Wouldn't make sense to include it when there is the precision stat that does just that - add crit. Then again %damage doesn't make sense either when not on the weapon, at least not when having more than a few %.

Flat dodge% we don't and won't see, just like we don't and won't see +%damage reduction or +%resistances. It makes it impossible to make the stats scale in a more linear fashion, and Blizzard seems to have learned the lesson in how to make stats scale reasonably (see: Dodge stacking in WoW pre-WotLK where later on it got "nerfed" to have linear returns, and negative resistances in high difficulties in D2 which we all know was a crappy mechanic needed to balance out the better gear you're getting, which is no longer needed due to the transition to ratings that have a different effect against different level monsters).

Yep. The constant for armor is 1/(50*Level).

Here's the formulas for resistance, defense, and armor.

However, you should know that There ARE flat dodge% bonuses on many skills. They currently stack multipicitavely, so 50% dodge and 30% dodge equals (1- 1*(1-.5)*(1-.3) ) = 65% Dodge. Still, multiplicitave scaling is much better than asymptotic scaling.

I've never seen any %Crit increase bonuses apart from skills, mostly barbarian skills.

I understood that x% damage stacked multiplicitavely, so 1,000 attack and +30% damage meant +1300% damage total.