WitchWild String Sockets?

[droid]

Witchwild string w/ 2x shaels.
i prefer mostly on the chipmc's guide.

Diamond bow will give you 3-frame Strafe without any additional IAS. Strafe is what you want to be using as your primary attack with WWS. Shael really doesnt do you much good at all.

You really really want an Eth in one socket, to improve your hitrate and procrate. To-hit is just as important as damage for your DPS. The other socket you really want a Nef, if you dont have KB somewhere else. If you do, then probably another Eth to bump your hitrate even more, or a Pskull/Amn if you need a little leechery.

[Hipster Ariel]

Diamond bow will give you 3-frame Strafe without any additional IAS. Strafe is what you want to be using as your primary attack with WWS. Shael really doesnt do you much good at all.

This. I stuck some 3x% ed jewels in mine.

It's a solid bow, you really can't go wrong with what you put into it. I'd avoid hrs though

[onderduiker]

So, for strafer, IAS is not that important?

As long as most of your arrows are firing at 3 frames you won't be noticing much difference.

Diamond bow will give you 3-frame Strafe without any additional IAS. Strafe is what you want to be using as your primary attack with WWS. Shael really doesnt do you much good at all.

These are the complete IAS breakpoint tables for Strafe with Witchwild String:

FRAMES/ATTACK              IAS
First   Follow   Last
------------------------------
    6        3     10        0
    6        3      9       13
    5        3      9       26
    5        3      8       29
    5        3      7       56
    4        2      7       86
    4        2      6      113

There is a bug affecting the last two breakpoints, such that the animations displayed are 4/2/7 and 4/2/6 but the actual attack sequences are 4/3/7 and 4/3/6. This has led to the belief that the last two breakpoints aren't worth reaching (some may even believe there's no improvement whatsoever), since a single 10 arrow Strafe sequence lasts 36 frames with 56 IAS and 34 frames with 113 IAS, an increase of ~5.9% (there's also the fact that once the displayed animation has finished after 26 frames with 113 IAS, the Amazon cannot move until the actual attack sequence has finished in 34 frames, 8 frames or 0.32 second later).

However, since Strafe is normally fired continuously, this belief is wrong: when the displayed animation finishes, the actual attack sequence is interrupted and a new attack sequence begins. The last part of the Strafe animation after the final arrow has been fired is the longest single component, so interrupting the sequence before it gets to this part can still result in a greater increase in attack rate (sometimes even if the sequence is interrupted before all arrows have been fired).

Strafe's actual attack rate is complicated by this bug, Next Delay and number of arrows, in such a way that its maximum attack rate against <10 stationary targets requires level 28-31 Strafe (always minimum 9 arrows) and just 86 IAS with Witchwild String: this results in an average attack rate of five frames per arrow against a single target and 3.125 frames per arrow against <10 targets when no arrow has to pass through another target.

Maximum attack rate against >9 targets is 3.25 frames per arrow with level >31 and 113 IAS, which is only ~3.8% faster than level 28-31 and 86 IAS (which is still 10.8% faster against 2-9 targets and 4% faster against one).

Compared to level 28-31 and 0 IAS (6 1/6 frames per arrow against a single target, 4 1/9 against <10), 86 IAS (5 vs 1, 3.125 vs <10) results in increases of ~23% and ~31.6% respectively; compared to 56 IAS (5.5 vs 1, 3 2/3 vs <10), 86 IAS results in increases of 10% and ~17.3% respectively.

For comparison purposes, 7 frame maximum attack rate with all other bow skills is ~14.3% increase on 8 frames, and 8 frames is 12.5% increase on 9 frames.

The Amazon Basin wiki's Strafe and Amazon attack rate pages go into more detail, based on analysis posted in the Crushing Blow and Strafe topic in the AB's Bowazon Room. In reality it gets even more complicated due to target movement (walking, running and Knockback), but I don't think anyone has tried taking the analysis that far.

[Hipster Ariel]

So...

Ias jewels with whatever ed% you can get on them?

[droid]

So...

Ias jewels with whatever ed% you can get on them?

You werent even listening, were you? :|

Two 15% IAS jewels with ED (which, by the way, you could probably trade for a better bow than WWS), will only increase your actual Strafe cycle by *one* frame out of *forty* (6/3...3/10 to 5/3...3/8, but that last one gets interrupted anyway). The ED is all you really need.

Better to look for an ED jewel with min/max/dex as the suffix. Or, even better and cheaper, NefEth. Eth will increase your DPS about the same as a 30something ED jewel, depending on your current hitrate vs L85 monsters (Pits, CS, WSK), and also increase your procrate for Amp by the same amount, which statistically increases your DPS even more.

Nef gives you KB, a tactical advantage thats not easily quantified but definitely makes a difference, not only in keeping monsters away from you, but also for putting monsters in hit recovery to help keep your merc and valk alive, though if you're just out for pure offense, Eth/ED jewel is probably the best combo.

[Hipster Ariel]

Am I getting scolded for not understanding that beast of a post onderduiker made? Cause what I took out of it was "strafe has speeds that arent displayed"

Maybe I should stick to zealots lol

[sinub]

I'm not really into those math. And I don't try to perfect every small part of my zon.
All I know is 115% IAS (w/ 2x shaels) looks faster than 75% IAS (I'm playing it right now and the different is easy to spot :-? ). But if the math really show that the different in actual action doesn't scale much then I'll consider changing it to 2x eth.

Maybe I'm just in NM and the AR is not a problem. When in Hell (a couple of days from now) I'll test out 2x shael vs 2x eth. Let's see which one has the edge. I won't put anything more into dex (~190 atm) so the AR right now (lvl54) and when in Hell (probably ~lvl63-65) is the same.

I won't do NefEth 'cause I'm playing w/ my friend's frostzon. He'll get mad if I keep pushing his 'pack of mob' everywhere. lol

p/s: anyone ever play a game w/ 8 strafer? Damn, only 2 and I'm excited to see arrows fly everywhere :P

[Hipster Ariel]

I just use enchant charges, it knocks the AR problems out.

I'm not even sure why people want knock back in softcore.

Maybe I'm just in NM and the AR is not a problem.

Yeah that's just NM. Hell is a different ball of wax.

NM is about as tough as hell pre-1.10

[onderduiker]

Am I getting scolded for not understanding that beast of a post onderduiker made? Cause what I took out of it was "strafe has speeds that arent displayed"

I'm not really into those math. And I don't try to perfect every small part of my zon.
All I know is 115% IAS (w/ 2x shaels) looks faster than 75% IAS (I'm playing it right now and the different is easy to spot :-? ). But if the math really show that the different in actual action doesn't scale much then I'll consider changing it to 2x eth.

Sorry about all the technical detail in my previous post. The point is, the bugged breakpoints result in a faster attack rate than is commonly believed, so it's worth considering reaching them: the first bugged breakpoint (86 IAS for WWS) is always faster than the preceding non-bugged breakpoint, and sometimes it's even faster than the second bugged breakpoint (depending on the number of arrows fired).

Maximum attack rate against less than 10 targets requires level 28-31 Strafe (always minimum 9 arrows) and 86 IAS with Witchwild String; maximum attack rate against 10 targets requires level 32 or more (always 10 arrows) and 113 IAS, although this is only a slight improvement (~3.8%) on level 28-31 and 86 IAS against 10 targets, while it can be slower at times depending on the number of arrows fired.

Unfortunately Strafe's actual attack rate is a complicated matter...

Spoiler

Against multiple targets that are spread out so no target is hit by more than one arrow (so Strafe's 4 frame Next Delay isn't an issue), it's pretty straightforward prior to the last two breakpoints. Assuming 10 arrows are fired:

IAS   FRAMES                 ATTACK RATE INCREASE
      Sequence   10 Arrows   6/3/ 9   5/3/ 9   5/3/ 8   5/3/ 7
--------------------------------------------------------------
  0   6/3/10        40        ~2.6%    ~5.3%    ~8.1%   ~11.1%
 13   6/3/ 9        39         0.0%    ~2.6%    ~5.4%    ~8.3%
 26   5/3/ 9        38                  0.0%    ~2.7%    ~5.6%
 29   5/3/ 8        37                           0.0%    ~2.8%
 56   5/3/ 7        36                                    0.0%

The improvement between 0 IAS and 56 IAS is only ~11.1%, equivalent to reducing MS or GA attack rate by a single frame from 10 to 9 frames. Equip 30 IAS, and reaching the next breakpoint only improves attack rate by ~2.8%.

However, at 86 IAS the animation is 4/2/7 or 27 frames for 10 arrows, while the actual sequence is 4/3/7 or 35 frames for 10 arrows. When firing continuously, the actual sequence stops after 27 frames, resulting in the following:

ARROWS   1    2    3    4    5    6    7    8  | 9
-----------------------------------------------|---
FRAME     4    7   10   13   16   19   22   25 | 28

So in 27 frames only 8 arrows get fired, or 3.375 (27/8) frames per arrow on average. This compares to 4 (40/10) frames per arrow at 0 IAS and 3.6 (36/10) frames at 56 IAS... increases of ~18.5% and ~6.7% respectively.

Earlier I posted that 113 IAS and 10 arrows fired was actually the fastest against 10 targets: 8 arrows are fired in 26 frames, or 3.25 frames per arrow on average: this is an increase of ~23.1% on 0 IAS, ~10.8% on 56 IAS and ~3.8% on 86 IAS.

Again, for more detail consult the Amazon Basin wiki's Strafe and Amazon attack rate pages, which are based on the analysis posted in the Crushing Blow and Strafe topic in the AB's Bowazon Room.

Of course, attack rate isn't the only factor affecting damage over time, so let's return to a concrete example offered earlier in this thread:

Leo, even considering our baseline AR, Eth is still a huge bonus to our DPS, especially at the price. If you have, say, an 83% chance to hit on average in Chaos Sanctuary, and Eth raises it just to 89% (purely random numbers), thats a 6% total increase to your DPS. There's diminishing returns on pumping AR/dex for to-hit trying to get to that 95% cap, so decreasing defense is the best way to boost your DPS. Even an Ohm might not give you that much, if you already have high dex and enough off-weapon ED.

Increasing chance-to-hit from 83% to 89% may increase chance-to-hit by 6%, but in terms of damage per second you go from applying damage 83% of the time to 89% of the time, an increase of ~7.2% (100*6/83).

Storm Casters have 1,981 defence in Hell Ladder and Single Player games (Doom Knights, Oblivion Knights and Venom Lords have 1,898), so assuming equal level 83% chance-to-hit requires 9,672 Attack Rating. A single Eth Rune's -25% Target Defence reduces Storm Casters to 1,486 defence, resulting in ~86.7% (100*9672/(9672+1486)) chance-to-hit and ~4.4% DPS increase.

Two Eth Runes (-50% TD) reduces Storm Casters to 991 defence, resulting in ~90.7% chance-to-hit and ~9.3% DPS increase. The difference in attack rate (and thus DPS) between 0 IAS (6/3/10) and 56 IAS (5/3/7) with 10 arrows is ~11.1%... and the two bugged breakpoints are faster still. In general, if chance-to-hit is already high then improving it by whatever means isn't going to result in a huge improvement in DPS:

CHANCE-TO-HIT   DPS INCREASE WHEN INCREASED TO
                80%       85%       90%       95%
-----------------------------------------------------
     75%        ~6.7%     ~13.30%   20.0%     ~26.7%
     80%                    6.25%   12.5%      18.75%
     85%                            ~5.9%     ~11.8%
     90%                                       ~5.6%

Finally, since an Ohm Rune's +50% Enhanced Damage applies to base weapon damage before +% Damage from Dexterity and other sources, it's the weapon's +% Enhanced Damage, and base damage with + Min/Maximum Damage equipped, which determines the magnitude of its effect: a perfect WWS's +170% ED multiplies base weapon damage by 2.7, so an Ohm Rune increases this to 3.2 or ~18.5% more (100*0.5/2.7) in the absence of + Min/Maximum Damage.

A Diamond Bow (33-40 base) with +170% ED would increase from 89-108 to 104-133 (118.5 avg) with War Traveler Unique Battle Boots (Adds 15-25 Damage), which an Ohm Rune would increase to 120-153 (136.5 avg) or only ~15.2% more; adding another 60 Maximum Damage results in 104-193 (148.5 avg), which an Ohm Eune would increase to 120-213 (166.5 avg) or only ~10.8% more... and yet, this is still better than the two Eth Runes (~9.3% DPS increase) in the example given earlier.

[droid]

Am I getting scolded for not understanding that beast of a post onderduiker made? Cause what I took out of it was "strafe has speeds that arent displayed"

Maybe I should stick to zealots lol

Heh I didnt mean to excoriate you....I guess I've just been looking at IAS charts for a long time

I just use enchant charges, it knocks the AR problems out.

I'm not even sure why people want knock back in softcore.

Thats one solution, albeit expensive. I tend to avoid relying on prebuffs, and I assume for my suggestions that others do too, but of course thats an executive decision.

Same for KB. I find it inimitably useful for when I'm at the WWS stage of my zon's wealth accumulation, since I probably wont have Fort and Andys, etc., with an ebug armor and vgaze for my merc, so death and merc death is still a plausible scenario, but another judgment call for your zon.

*paraphrased in some parts by droid*

The bugged breakpoints result in a faster attack rate than is commonly believed, so it's worth considering reaching the first bugged breakpoint (86 IAS for WWS)

The improvement between 0 IAS and 56 IAS is only ~11.1%
The improvement between 0 and 86 IAS is 23-31%

Increasing chance-to-hit from 83% to 89% may increase chance-to-hit by 6%, but in terms of damage per second you go from applying damage 83% of the time to 89% of the time, an increase of ~7.2% (100*6/83).

A single Eth Rune's -25% Target Defence reduces Storm Casters to 1,486 defence, resulting in ~4.4% DPS increase.

Two Eth Runes (-50% TD) reduces Storm Casters to 991 defence, resulting in ~9.3% DPS increase.

A perfect WWS's +170% ED multiplies base weapon damage by 2.7, so an Ohm Rune increases this to 3.2 or ~18.5% more (100*0.5/2.7) in the absence of + Min/Maximum Damage.

If you'll forgive me for digesting your previous analyses for brevity...

When the question is what to socket in a WWS, I think you have to assume a priori that the player is not going to have carte blanche to socket with anything they want, so Ohm is out, as is 40/15s, probably 40/anythings, etc. WWS is, with the exception of maybe a Pit Strafer, not a primary endgame weapon, so anything that exceeds the trade value of a Windforce just raises the question of "why not just trade that for a WF?"

Same logic for your assumption of base to-hit rate...I think 83% is probably a little high for our hypothetical zon, who's probably not L85+ herself, and probably doesnt have 350+ dex, and probably doesnt have any persistent AR bonuses beyond maybe Atma's Scarab and Ravenfrost, and probably doesnt have Torch+Anni to free up SPs to boost Penetrate. The worse your real-world to-hit vs Storm Casters and other L85s, the more benefit you get out of Eth. Id say going from 73 to 83 might be a better baseline assumption than 83 to 89, which would increase Eth's to-hit DPS bonus to 13%

You also forgot to account for, as I mentioned before, the increase in procrate of Amp, which will give you 2-300% damage, proccing 7.2% more often, which factors into your total DPS advantage with Eth.

With the question of ED jewels vs IAS jewels vs Shaels vs Eth/XX for WWS, which is what the OP has boiled down to, you can either shoot for:

-86 IAS and that 23-31% DPS bonus, which means probably 2x Shael, 20% IAS gloves, Highlords for 20%, and then 10% IAS helm
-You can forego IAS entirely and go for the damage-added route, which means 2x ED jewels for a maybe ~60% ED bonus (35+% on-weapon DPS), plus freedom of other gear
-You can go for the hitrate route, with Eth for a bonus that's worth more the worse your baseline hitrate is and increased Amp procs, plus KB or an ED jewel or what-have-you

tldr: there isnt a one-size-fits-all best answer for what to socket in WWS At least not in real-world terms, though on paper you can find a superior though unrealistically-expensive setup.