Ralguleld, is that the time you get when using a run counter? That is, you get ~65 runs per hour consistently, including loading times, unloading stuff in the stash, etc.
That sounds very good, and borderline impossible to me, for a non-teleporting character running through the docks, and not even with 20 points in Increased Speed. Do you pick up charms/jewels/gems? I'd love to see a video, but I guess I say that to everyone
I haven't used run counter, but I played (in this particular time quest) ~30 minutes and all times (except immune to physical council member) were under 55 seconds. Of course, run counter would be ideal, but my RL lets me play very seldom these times so I haven't time to start proper optimalization.
But I was picking only high runes (read - nothing), usually I pick all charms and jewels, those time would be of course longer, but I supposed you are talking about rune/time efficiency.
I am not claiming to have realized something special, the main reason for my post was to force someone rich and skilled with running council (yes, I mean for example you, Fabian ) to try it with better gear.
In fact, I was thinking about something like this:
Synergized frenzy, one point in sword and one in mace mastery, Stormlash/Grief PB combo. From my rough calculations Grief gives 50% more damage then Redeemer (against demons) and is of course faster. You don't have enough points to max mastery anyway so the 1 point strategy enabling using different weapon types is not a problem.
purplelocust: Interesting. I know that as I've built up my wealth it's been the opposite. Once you have most of the uniques and runes you want, the only thing left is awesome blues/yellows/oranges. I'm pretty sure I've seen bcoe post a similar opinion somewhere.
Frankly I'm very dubious. I have a level 93 frenzy barb, so I'm pretty familiar with it, and it doesn't really seem suitable at all. Frenzy barbs attack at 5 frames when maxed out, which is less than half that of maxed whirlwind. They also lose more time with their initial attacks being slower before Frenzy gets charged up. Frenzy can get more %ED yes, but that's not going to counteract WW attacking 2.5x faster.
An enigma WWer with a fcr switch doesn't just save a few seconds getting to the council, he'll also save more time horking faster.
Frenzy's an extremely skillpoint-intensive build, and you're not going to be able to max Find Item without making sacrifices elsewhere. You're either going to lose out on mastery/synergies (which is really the only advantage frenzy would have over WW) or not use BO. If you don't BO then your merc will be much more fragile, die more often and greatly slow down runs when that happens. Resurrecting also takes time and diminishes GFing. Frenzy also needs CBF (unlike WW) which means you're probably using either Ravenfrost (even less horking from shattered corpses) or maybe Trang's belt, which you'd get no other benefits from. Holy Freeze council members become a major problem instead of a benefit.
Add to that that Frenzy is normally played by simply holding down right-click and steering into monsters. If you do that with the council you'll lose a few seconds every time before you realize that you're hitting Ishmael and have to zerk him down. I re-equipped my frenzy barb (2x grief pb, fortitude, all the trimmings) just to make sure and it took about 3 times longer to kill the council, longer to get there from the waypoint AND longer to hork (with less chance to hork).
WW couldn't have been better for council-running if it had been deliberately designed that way, and Frenzy has a LOT of issues. Of course you COULD run with a frenzy barb. You COULD run the council with anything really, it's just not going to be anywhere near as efficient.
@Frowzor: My decisions about items to pick up factors in a lot of things. I think there was a thread a while ago "what do you pick up?" along those lines. I sometimes pick up potential staffmod items and rares that have some potential. But most rares I leave on the ground these days in MF runs. One thing to realize is that because of the way that affixes are assigned, it is easier for low qlvl items to get high affixes sometimes, so with the upgrade recipes for rares, that changes what might be attractive in that department.
For plain blue magic items, I've got a good collection of 1.07 magic items, many of which would be impossible to beat in 1.10+, so it's pretty easy for me to leave those on the ground. Certainly magic rings- and I still see too many of those gambling sometimes anyway!
In general, I found I was spending too much time sorting through items but everyone has their own balance between speed and thoroughness.
I can't agree with you, Frowzor. But before I continue, keep in mind that I am not trying to imply that frenzy is faster then ww. I want to imply, that't it is not so bad like many people think.
Originally Posted by Frowzor
Frenzy's an extremely skillpoint-intensive build
False. At least for Travincal running. This is the biggest myth about frenzy. People usually check the skill calculator and realize that you have few points. Few points = low efficiency? Not in this case.
Let's see the damage.
Lvl 22 frenzy with double swing maxed: 355 ED
Fortitude: 300 ED
LoH: 350 ED
Now think about Taunt. Do you need the extra ED? Lvl 10 Taunt gives 80% ED, lvl 20 160% ED. By saving 10 skill points you loose 80% ED. Compare it with 1000% ED you already have.
The same with mastery, 20 hard points are not neccesary, 1,5,7,14, all these numbers are nice - the added damage is low, don't care too much about it.
By the way have you read my post about killing council with my barb? 55 seconds (without picking blues) is unoptimized Griefless time, your "three times slower killing speed" is something I don't believe much.
I think some things are too overrated in ww case. AoE attack? Super, I agree. Is it really SO important versus definite number of council members? Who knows. 4 frames dual wield attack (or how many monsters you hit every 4 frames)? Nice, I agree. Frenzy and its low 5 frames with one weapon. Again - against 10 monsters the time spent is not SO long. And I even haven't started the CB/static discussion (well now you will tell me that 1/3 is imunne and CB is overrated when compared with Grief huge damage, but someone should do the math - "thinking that something is better" is not enough - I would like to see the optimized times).