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  1. #41
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    Re: SP(T)F Price Check guide 1.13c Edition

    I really don't think a Raven Claw's real market value is a Gul. I also don't think it was Mal back in 1.12a. Think about it, basically every single Raven Claw which has been offered for Gul (or Mal back then) has been sold in a matter of a day or two, as far as I know. Someone puts it up for trade, immediately there are people buying. The fact that you sold your 5 Raven Claws for Gul each without trouble doesn't imply a Raven Claw is worth a Gul; it implies it's worth more than that. If you had asked for Gul + Ist each, they might have sold just as easily. We'll never know.

    The same has been true, to some extent, for many useful old-version items. Eth 4os/5os Berserker Axes and 1.07 LoH comes to mind immediately, but I think Raven Claw is the best example.



  2. #42
    IncGamers Member RobbyD's Avatar
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    Re: SP(T)F Price Check guide 1.13c Edition

    @Fabian: You may well be right, but I was already nervous enough asking for more than the listed value for them. It will have to be somebody else to test the value of that weapon.



  3. #43
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    Re: SP(T)F Price Check guide 1.13c Edition

    can i get a PC on this please?

    Captain's Grand Charm of Strength
    Grand Charm
    Required Level: 42
    Fingerprint: 0xa8db9c24
    Item Level: 80
    Version: Expansion 1.10+
    +1 to Offensive Aura Skills (Paladin Only)
    +6 to Strength



  4. #44
    IncGamers Member Greebo's Avatar
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    Re: SP(T)F Price Check guide 1.13c Edition

    First of all, for these questions, there is another thread. This one is to comment on frozzzen's guide.

    In the right circumstances +6 Strength can be +18 Life on Captain's GC. However those are not very valuable in the first place. 20 Pgems, if you find a buyer.



  5. #45
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    Re: SP(T)F Price Check guide 1.13c Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by NagisaFurukawa View Post
    Also, drop ratio is relatively meaningless when considering trade value, so I'd go with a tweak on frozzzen's suggestion: 2.75 Lo = 2.5 Sur = 1.75 Cham = 1.5 Ber = 1.25 Jah = Zod. The reasons would be that 1) you can only do so much with Lo/Jah before they become trade/cube fodder, 2) multiple Sur/Cham have at least slightly more utility than "equivalent" cubed rune value, and 3) Zod is awesome.
    I got this from a thread in the singleplayer section ( not the trade part ^^)

    Do you guys agree on the prices ? I am looking to make myself a infinity, and i thought I would be miles off, but I have quite a few Vex'es lying around from recent trades that would certainly cube up to 3 or 4 Lo's.

    Also why not include this in the price quide ?




  6. #46
    IncGamers Member frozzzen's Avatar
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    Re: SP(T)F Price Check guide 1.13c Edition

    Price guide is heavily outdated. Probably it's cause when I made it I did values according to cubing values - hence Tyrael's Might is worth Zod.

    Probably it would be best to update it? There is some nice input in this thread already, but we would have to agree on some kind of rune valuation.

    Ideas would be:

    Bump P&B skillers into tier 1 for sure (not so sure about trap skillers)
    Send PCombat skillers in tier 2.
    Reduce value of Fine small charms of Vita by 30% or more.

    And we need new valuation system for some higher end items. It says that Tyrael is worth Zod, but people have different preference on runes so it would need some general rune valuation.

    Any input would be helpful. Now I have some time to work on guide while I'm on winter break.



  7. #47
    IncGamers Member NagisaFurukawa's Avatar
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    Re: SP(T)F Price Check guide 1.13c Edition

    Twoflower: If people agreed on prices, I wouldn't have posted to begin with. It's pretty arbitrary really, and that was essentially how I felt the rune exchange would eventually settle to being. The best thing to do would be just to try. Before cubing up your runes, you could, in theory, just throw up a thread and see if there are multiple people looking to trade Sur for Lo, or something similar. In the [somewhat unlikely] case you can get enough for 'Infinity', then of course you would do it.



  8. #48
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    Re: SP(T)F Price Check guide 1.13c Edition

    Translate rune values into an arbitrary point system. This is something I've felt we should have done for quite some time now, the old "cubing up" way of valuing runes is just worthless nowadays since people don't cube runes. Like this, for what Nagisa suggested 2 posts up:

    Lo = 1
    Sur = 1.1
    Cham = 1.57
    Ber = 1.83
    Jah = 2.2
    Zod = 2.75

    Start with a lower "base", that is, perhaps Mal should be assigned 1 point, and put corresponding values on each rune. Something like this:

    Mal = 1
    Ist = 1.5
    Gul = 2.25
    Vex = 3.5
    Ohm = 5.25
    Lo = 8
    Sur = 9
    Ber = 14.5
    Jah = 17.5
    Cham = 10.5
    Zod = 17.5
    10pgems = 0.2
    100pgems = 3
    10 Ral = 0.25
    100 Ral = 3.5
    (Um = 0.6, Pul = 0.4, Lem = 0.2)

    Honestly, this doesn't look half bad to me. Rune values up to Ohm/Lo is basically previous rune value * 1.5, which is probably not fully accurate in every case, but I think it's reasonable. Going by cubing value, like the old days, is almost definitely inaccurate imo, in any case. Then from Lo and up, I'm going close to Nagisa's suggesion, which I think is pretty reasonable. Once this is established, we can easily transfer item values to this system, based on how we valued them in the old valuing system.

    The numbers I suggested might be off, and do chime in, but I think it's semi important we can sort of agree on some base values. Obviously, just like previous methods of valuation, including the old cubing stuff and the hybrid stuff frozzzen introduced with this thread, these values certainly aren't set in stone and can change over time, or certain people might value certain stuff higher/lower and etc etc. The bartering part of the SPTF certainly wouldn't disappear

    But I think this needs to happen. Let's hear your opinions.

    Edit: I changed the Cham and Zod valuations, they were higher originally as I went very close to Nagisa's suggesion. It seems to me most people (including myself) value Cham and Zod lower than Nagisa, frozzzen and Pyro (who if I recall correctly are the 3 main supporters of those runes' high values), but obviously time will tell. We haven't seen many Zod trades yet.


    Last edited by Fabian; 28-12-2010 at 19:13.

  9. #49
    IncGamers Member Greebo's Avatar
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    Re: SP(T)F Price Check guide 1.13c Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Fabian View Post
    Translate rune values into an arbitrary point system. This is something I've felt we should have done for quite some time now, the old "cubing up" way of valuing runes is just worthless nowadays since people don't cube runes.
    I agree, in principle. But there are problems associated with it. Like in any economy without currency, the most sought after goods (say, like gold in middle ages) take the form of currency. The problem now is, the runes lost the currency-like properties that were there from cubing.

    Your idea of "points system" is basically introducing a currency into SPTF. The problem is, as long as it's not official (and I'm certain it will never be), it's not going to work too well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fabian View Post
    Honestly, this doesn't look half bad to me. Rune values up to Ohm/Lo is basically previous rune value * 1.5, which is probably not fully accurate in every case, but I think it's reasonable. Going by cubing value, like the old days, is almost definitely inaccurate imo, in any case. Then from Lo and up, I'm going close to Nagisa's suggesion, which I think is pretty reasonable. Once this is established, we can easily transfer item values to this system, based on how we valued them in the old valuing system.
    I very much disagree with the 1.5. Before the madness of 1.13c, the multiplier was 1.75, and I think it still applies to runes Lo and lower. There was a trade like this just last week I think.

    Lo=Ohm+Vex+Gul
    Ohm=Vex+Gul+Ist
    Vex=Gul+Ist+Mal

    On the other hand we had

    Mal = 45 PGems
    Ist = 70 PGems

    recently, too. I'm too lazy to check how that fits into your calculations, to be completely honest.

    Now, as for how runes Lo/Sur/Ber/Jah/Cham/Zod are related to each other, there are disagreements.

    At least we can certainly agree that
    Ber = 2*Sur
    Zod = 2*Cham
    (that is to say, almost no one will ever want to trade down from Zod, or Ber; those are the "target runes")

    What is unclear is 3 different value-relations
    (A) Lo <-> Sur
    (B) Ber <-> Jah
    (C) Zod <-> Jah

    (A) Lo <-> Sur
    There are many reasons why I think that Lo is very valuable. Chances of most monsters (that are run for runes) to drop a Lo are lower (or similar) than a monster dropping a Sur. On the other hand, LK /p7 has 2*Lo, 13*Sur, 3*Ber. I'd estimate that 15-25% of runes in the forum are from LK, so it's not without impact. Of course Ohm and Vex can count as 0.5 and 0.25 of Lo, respectively, but that doesn't change the fact that Lo and Sur are almost in a balance drop-wise.

    Lo gives 'Grief', the most powerful weapon in the game (possibly with exceptions, but that's not the point of all this). A weapon which is, incidentally, used to run the Council, to get more runes. Which is why I think that two things are happening at once:
    (1) Lo is a rune very much in demand.
    (2) Sur is as easy to get as Lo.

    Trading Lo=Sur is easy, and I wouldn't be surprised if we started seeing Lo=Sur+Gul soon, or something like that.

    (B) Ber <-> Jah
    There were quite a few trades of Ber=Jah, but most of them not that recent. Recently people started to have problems exchanging their Ber's for Jah's (reported in the PC thread). I got Jah=Sur+Lo, but that goes back to what I wrote above, that Lo might be becoming more valuable than Sur.

    I think, over time, people got their 'Enigma's and 'Infinity's and now they are looking more towards things like 'Faith', 'Ice', etc. which need Jah's. And since some part of runes in the forum come from LK, where Jah doesn't drop, there is some push towards appreciation of the price of Jah vs. Ber. Anyway between Jah = Ber to Jah = Ber+Sur wouldn't surprise in the next 2-3 months.

    (C) Zod <-> Jah
    I know Nagisa, frozzzen and Pyro all say Zod is great, etc. That doesn't change the fact that I hadn't seen either of them trade runes that high anytime recently. It's what they think things "should be" based on their perception of usefulness.

    Let's be honest, guys, your perception of usefulness is different than other people's. You're (or were, Oh Generous One ) rich, have all the other runewords that you might want. You played with 'Enigma', 'Infinity', 'Faith' and these things aren't something special anymore, TO YOU. On the other hand an ATMA-Zod-bugged 1.07 ethereal claw as a base, or an ATMA-Zod-bugged eth Tomby of the highest rolls, those thing are exciting. And, objectively, they are. But also, they are niche.

    As long as people who claim Zod to be awesome don't post threads like

    "Here are my Jah's and Ber's, GIVE ME ALL YOUR Zod's AND Cham's!!!!"

    I'm gonna look at all those claims with some skepticism.

    I have seen Cham=Sur trades. I haven't seen Zod=Jah+Jah, or even Zod=Ber+Sur trades. For now, in my mind Zod = 2*Cham = Ber. Which might be worth less than a Jah, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fabian View Post
    The numbers I suggested might be off, and do chime in, but I think it's semi important we can sort of agree on some base values.
    I simply don't think you can close all this in terms of simple numbers system. There's too little volume in the market for things to be truly settled anytime soon. I think some form of what we write here should go into the guide. Hopefully in a much clearer form.


    --Greebo



  10. #50
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    Re: SP(T)F Price Check guide 1.13c Edition

    "Your idea of "points system" is basically introducing a currency into SPTF. The problem is, as long as it's not official (and I'm certain it will never be), it's not going to work too well."

    I don't really know what you mean by "official", but runes are and have always been a currency in the SPTF, whether official or not. The question is how they are valued, in relation to themselves and to other items. Before 1.13, it was simple, as cubing was the way of obtaining higher runes, and you could definitely say what a Mal was worth in relation to an Ist. Now, it's not so clear, but that doesn't mean the relation doesn't exist, or should exist.

    I don't think it matters if you say "well Sur is worth 9 points and Lo is worth 8 points, so I'm willing to swap my Sur for your Lo, maybe you could throw in a little something though" or "Sur and Lo are valued about the same, let's do a swap if you could throw in a little something". Using a point system just makes it easier to compare things imo. It's pretty much always been in effect anyway; before 1.13, Mal was 2 points and Gul was 8 points. Fortitude was 64 points and Death's Fathom was perhaps 16-64 points, depending on roll. It just wasn't stated like this, because the value system was intuitive enough. Now, it's not, which is exactly why formalizing this is important and useful.

    Look at frozzen's guide. It's more or less based on the old rune cubing system, and you can easily say that x is worth y points and a is worth b points, by converting a rune name into a number of points. Then, this base valuation can change based on individual traders' preferences, competition between sellers/buyers, or any number of factors. This has been the case forever, before bassen's price guide and before frozzzen's price guide. There's no reason we can't still have it like this, just because the relative values between runes have changed.

    Edit: I guess this: "The problem now is, the runes lost the currency-like properties that were there from cubing." is the point we disagree entirely on. Don't you agree runes are still used as currency, let's say in the last 3-4 months? I think looking at frozzzen's price guide, or pretty much any trade involving runes, very clearly points out that there's an expectation that a certain rune holds a certain value (like calling a Sur "trade fodder", etc)

    Edit2: Sorry for editing, but I want to add this just to be as clear as I can:

    "Your idea of "points system" is basically introducing a currency into SPTF. The problem is, as long as it's not official (and I'm certain it will never be), it's not going to work too well."

    The currency is already introduced, and always has been (for as long as I've been around anyway). Runes are currency, period (if anyone else disagrees with this, let me know. Maybe I've been misunderstanding the SPTF completely for 3 years). A point system would just be a way of making those values more clear. It wasn't necessary when the value was Rune x = 1, Rune x+1 = 2, Rune x+2 = 4, etc, since that was a point system in itself, but now it is.


    Last edited by Fabian; 28-12-2010 at 21:31.

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