i thought mike closed this thread.
Exactly! You've practiced for years, learning all the moves, and learning how to react to different situations based on your opponents choice of moves, and also perfected the timing need to perform and counter moves.Originally Posted by gurnison
The same goes for D2. Knowleadge about the game will increase your skill, but also knowing how to react to different situations, being able to perform your actions and time it all right to make it work. It takes practice and skill.
You can't refuse this. If you do, then your point on street fighter is a moot one, since it's basically the same as D2. Learn the moves, learn to counter them and learn the timing needed. In D2 however there is only the added element of items.
Unofficial Incgamers Clan - The Red One
The real scientific test: pitch a pvp noob against a skilled player wirth exactly the same char. See if there is a consistent, statistically significant trend in wins for the skilled player. if yes, skill is valid, If no, skill is a myth.
Control group: pitch two pvp noobs against each other with exact the same char. See if there is a trend. If there is a trend, that invalidates the first result. If tehre is no trend, good news for skill-believers.
Go on, do it.
DO IT NOW!
Street fighter and d2? Those are completely different games. If you are stating that you need items to reach fhr, fcr breakpoints, then yes, you are right. This is an RPG and items ARE involved as in any other role playing game. It doesn't matter if you PVM or PVP - equipping you charater, finding items, trading them are some of the most important components of an RPG.
But if you are not blind, You should've understood what others are saying. You are always taking an example of a character with white items. In this case, a character who has almost godly gear would be the one with magical (blue) items. You might even have a chance with your white items agains such an opponet. Blue items are better, but not THAT much better that they would make you a winner if you don't use some kind of a strategy.
Now, what are all the other people saying? Take the example the other way round. The one with magical items would equal the one with superb godly gear - perfect charms, super rare rings, amulets, circlets, high end runewords and so on. I think you can figure it out what the character with white items would be equal to. Those items wouldn't be godly, charms wouldn't be perfect either. All your equipment would be a lot cheaper. But the difference wouldn't be THAT big that it would clearly make the wealthy player an auto-winner.
So just one more time.
1. D2 is a game, where you move in an area trying to dodge your opponents attacks, while trying to land some damage on him (that includes, shooting, teleporting to where your opponent might be in a few miliseconds (missiles do take time to fly), landing some specifix spells (bone spirit, traps, heck even hydras) and then trying to make your opponent to blindly stomp on them - that involves even some psychological strategies, so on and so forth...). Those things are the skills.
2. The equipment. You do not need super godly equipment to pvp. But, yes, you need equipment to raise your damage numbers and to reach some certain breakpoints. In other words - equipment is just for making your character a character. (A sorceress with 0 fcr will almost always lose against a sorceress with 105 or even 63 fcr, because those breakpoints influence your teleporting speed. And again - you do not need godly equipment to reach those breakpoints). Please, be so kind and try to understandt what is cheap, budget but still viable equipment and what is a godly equipment.
3. Godly equipped character vs. a character with budget equipment does not mean that the wealthy player will win. You need some smart tactical thinking. Always - that's the main part of pvp in D2, and that's why everybody's pvp'ing.
4. And for the sake of god - White items are NOT budget items.
Do not compare street fighter with D2. I'll say it again. Those are two totally different games. Different people enjoy different genres of games. And the pvp is totally different in those different genre games. Equipment is one of the main things why role playing games are played.
If you want you can compare a game like WoW to D2 or something else. But, please, just stay in the genre of RPG.
P.S. Sorry for the wall of text. I'm a foreighner and I could have written all my thoughts 4 times shorter in my native language. I just want to make it VERY clear and I can't do that by writing short texts in english yet.
Man I am so glad to see there is someone here that finally knows what they are talking about. I actually play barb, have been for years but I mainly BvB so that is mostly items.
My problem is that being such an old stickler to a non-teleport class of character, I have a bit of a problem transitioning to enigma ever since 1.10.
My bro and I have pretty much all the same items, and I can get any item I need for res,fcr, weapons etc. But here is my problem- when he plays he gets waaaay more kills then I do in pubs or even when we get together with friends and go private pvp. See, all this time I thought that I needed to practice teleport, leap, attack/evade to get good. My internet speed is fine, ping is fine too.
So wtf bro, are you saying that all I need is more items to get more kills? Cause damn, if there are items that would allow me to absorb magic from pallies and boners, that would be so cool. Also when I'm in pubs with multiple players, there must be a perfect item set-up for me to deal with all the classes at the same time. I mean wow, if I can just stack the right items as you suggest, since there is no skill involved, then I can be a more of a winner like you? I want to be, so please please grace me with your knowledge and help a brother out!
Thanks in advance.
@aivwaras - For a non-native English speaker, you honestly use the language better than the majority of English speakers, so no need for apologies there.
@Barloc - Nice
We've already made more than enough effort to reason with this poster. Logic and him don't seem to go together, and the reasoning skills he claimed were common to all people he also seems to be lacking.
But wow, no one agrees with him and somehow he continues to fight on, no matter how many examples are given that prove his perception is wrong. This is why we don't argue over the internet kids. Long drawn out battles over the dumbest $h%!.
I still can't believe he brought up the baiting, the patience, etc and totally believes it doesn't apply to D2. I can't think of any decent pvper that doesn't bring that type of thinking to any game they end up pvping in. Makes me sad that someone can have the proof right in front of him and somehow still say it isn't so.
But seriously.... wow. Ok I'm done.
This guy has to be the most ignorant dense person in the world. I honestly hope you get banned soon.
i don't see why people are debating and trying to validate their arguments with extremes.
a noob using the same char as a skilled player will statistically lose more.
that does not mean skill > gear.
if that's the experiment to do, then i'll just say 2 skilled players, one using top end gear, and another using budget items, the former will win most of the time.
so gear > skill.
it seems like everyone is deliberately misreading each other.
the argument is that both play a large part in dueling. and that skill not > all when it comes to pvp.
stop comparing pros to noobs, so that the difference in skill is so overpowering.
just because you are more skilled doesn't mean you will win despite of your gear of lack of. i've said this before.
it depends on HOW MUCH more skillful you are.
skill goes up in increments, just like gear. which is why i maintain that both are equally important in pvp.
using the general assumption that pubs are pure noobs, by your argument that skill > everything else, that means that anyone mediocre can go in there with any half-assed budget char and own all their faces.
everyone knows this is not true. excuses of hacks/mods/bm to disprove this statement are invalid because a skillful player can counter them or do the same thing, right? right?
the arguement of skill > all is pure arrogance that doesn't hold up.
@seksegai
to go back to what you said in the previous thread:
that's kinda self contradictory. it's like handing a knife to a recruit and asking him to take out a machine gun position.Killing in these sets is humilation and/or training for new pvp players. People who can get kills wearing this will obviously outclass their competition.
that's not training for the recruit. that's suicide.
a well-trained commando MAY be able to do it, but ordering a recruit to do it is tantamount to murder.
not to mention if noobs train with tal set, they'll actually be unused to more viable and feasible set ups when they do get hold of and use those.
if anything, a budget char should resemble a top tier char of the same type, just with lesser and cheaper gear with maybe a few gear substitutes to function at the same breakpoints or something.
it doesn't take 3hrs to equip a budget non-tal sorc gear. low end unique gear and low roll runewords are so cheap it's silly.
the uniques and runewords are cheap if you're not looking for perfect stuff as mentioned above.On the otherhand, tal's doesn't inhibit performance persay, its just you can get a lot more performance if you can afford to fully deck out in uniques and runewords.
there is actually, seriously no reason to use tal's unless you pvming.
tals cost 1hr for the whole set on nl. if you're using tals, you're on some SERIOUS budget constraints. anyone with enough wealth to just get 9 plain skillers can afford something better than tals. if your tal sorc is using 9x 45 skill lifers, 20/20 torch and 20/20 anni, there's something wrong with you, or you're just stretching to try to prove a point.
i like dueling in pubs. the bm-ing/hacks/mods force me to make less or no mistakes. if your smiter can beat an enchanted, faded, aa jumping bvc stacking slow and poison, you can beat almost every gm bvc. trust me.But you seem to believe that competition is all top tier. Last time I went pubbing, I had more issues dealing with BM more than anything. Finding real competition was ultimately more challenging on bnet then the actual fights.
the thing is that you're misrepresenting his stand to the statement of gear > skill, and then easily disproving that. but that is not his stand in the first place. this is called a strawman argument, and is used to make observers think you refuted him, when actually you didn't.But wow, no one agrees with him and somehow he continues to fight on, no matter how many examples are given that prove his perception is wrong. This is why we don't argue over the internet kids. Long drawn out battles over the dumbest $h%!
the stand of 'gear > skill' is not the equivalent of 'skill not > all'.
this is like arguing that air is more important than food for us to survive.
@ elation - you misinterpreted who would be wearing the sets, allow me to clarify. A seasoned veteran would don said said so that pvper in training would have an easier go.
Now let's say instead of training someone (ie practice duels), regular pvper instead decides to go to pub in non-standard gear, like IK set. For him or her to kill would basically mean outclassing his/her competition because his/her equipment is below par for pvp.
As for the strawman argument - don't see it. His claim was that pvp is entirely gear based, as was made previous thread. I don't see how several of us would all "misinterpret" that exactly the same way.
You can't race F1 without having minimal equipment, same goes for PvP. If gear was all that mattered, then it would be impossible to win against better gear - which has already been proven false.
As far as I can tell, everyone else has basically stated that while there are gear requirements, gear alone does not dictate the victor. I don't even recall if you were in the last thread elation, but kudos to you for getting me to post in this pointless thread uno mas.
It's true that the extremes don't work and that same gear defeats the purpose of determining how differing gear works in relation to skill as well.
However...This is false. Someone mediocre can go into a pub with a PVM char and own. Depending on the char and damage, it'd be a matter of time before a counter like sorb is used, but it isn't hard to just go in and own pubs with even that char.using the general assumption that pubs are pure noobs, by your argument that skill > everything else, that means that anyone mediocre can go in there with any half-assed budget char and own all their faces.
everyone knows this is not true. excuses of hacks/mods/bm to disprove this statement are invalid because a skillful player can counter them or do the same thing, right? right?
Some use a baal running hdin, a 102 trapper, a blizz sorc, etc. All strong builds on their own, but don't need great gear to be effective (the last two just don't do so well vs sorb and stacked max res).
Right, which is why the argument is that skill > most (not all), and that it doesn't factor as the only thing that makes you win. Otherwise, it'd be possible to own with a naked char on a regular basis.the arguement of skill > all is pure arrogance that doesn't hold up.
No, they wouldn't be unused to a better char. The only difference that would affect a player *might* be the FCR frames, but that's easy to get used to. Otherwise, it's adding life and damage, which doesn't throw anyone off.not to mention if noobs train with tal set, they'll actually be unused to more viable and feasible set ups when they do get hold of and use those.
if anything, a budget char should resemble a top tier char of the same type, just with lesser and cheaper gear with maybe a few gear substitutes to function at the same breakpoints or something.
it doesn't take 3hrs to equip a budget non-tal sorc gear. low end unique gear and low roll runewords are so cheap it's silly.
And yes, budget resembles a top-tier, but without some of the fluff (in some cases, using low rolls on items, plain mods, etc). That's exactly what a Tal's set does for a sorc. It gives her res, cast, life, damage boost, etc. It's a lower-tier form, but does the same as an upper tier on a smaller scale.
Even upgrading to still budget, you don't do a whole lot better. Other gear is still much more powerful, yet even a char with the low uniques and a low CTA can win well if the player has skill*.
*Not a comment on you, elation, but to the OP. (In b4 you over react again)
Suppose a player can only get one HR and has always wanted to PvP?there is actually, seriously no reason to use tal's unless you pvming.
tals cost 1hr for the whole set on nl. if you're using tals, you're on some SERIOUS budget constraints. anyone with enough wealth to just get 9 plain skillers can afford something better than tals. if your tal sorc is using 9x 45 skill lifers, 20/20 torch and 20/20 anni, there's something wrong with you, or you're just stretching to try to prove a point.
There are almost always going to be a better way to do something for a build and better rares somewhere on the market. But, these aren't needed. Once a char is functional, then it's up to the skill of the player.
You can defeat the char, but not necessarily the player. This example doesn't account for player skill, but only looks at the char used. A better BvC wouldn't necessarily be killed like the BM one.i like dueling in pubs. the bm-ing/hacks/mods force me to make less or no mistakes. if your smiter can beat an enchanted, faded, aa jumping bvc stacking slow and poison, you can beat almost every gm bvc. trust me.
But, that's just another example to the OP about how skill plays a factor in things.
You need to learn how to read a strawman. He's done no such thing.the thing is that you're misrepresenting his stand to the statement of gear > skill, and then easily disproving that. but that is not his stand in the first place. this is called a strawman argument, and is used to make observers think you refuted him, when actually you didn't.
the stand of 'gear > skill' is not the equivalent of 'skill not > all'.
this is like arguing that air is more important than food for us to survive.
The OP is saying gear is the factor and pvp is a comparison of that with skill taking a backseat.
We haven't been saying that skill is 100% the factor. That's you using a strawman.
What has been said is that it plays a major part of pvp, with gear taking the back seat. Gear only helps to make the char function, and being top-tier isn't a requirement. This was indeed refuting that gear > all that was asserted, which you clearly misread.
If you're going to call someone on being wrong, take the time to make sure it isn't you who's actually wrong.
Last edited by Sass; 01-07-2010 at 18:16.
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