Help me fine tune my PvP smiter

[Sass]

exile is bm everywhere but europe i think. not being in the top 5 dueling classes isn't an excuse to bm imo. that's like saying my wolf druid can't kill teleporting characters so i should be allowed to fade, enchant, juve and have a merc up when i duel.

Eh, that isn't the same comparison. You aren't bringing something in that's GM; that list is just being BM.

The Exile is GM depending on place, and isn't like the listed examples.

can you explain why pb > ba? i can't fathom why. i would say ba > pb every single time in gm environments, especially if you can use it with minimum investment in str.

The "sub par range" doesn't matter when you tele smite. PB's are used because they are fast, and you have a much easier time "stacking" IAS to counter act being frozen (mostly, to counter Holy Freeze), or slow (golem, decrepify, etc).

BA only have the range (1) advantage, but are weakened when you get frozen.

BTW, Trappers don't use facets or conviction.

to win as a smiter, stop thinking like a cookie cutter one. ditch the dracs and exile, throw away the 'recommended' phase blade for a zerker and trade the pcomb lifers in for shimmering scs of vita.

Agreed with disadvantage with barb (all smiters are, but BA helps).

However, the recommended PB is a situational thing, not recommended for vs all opponents. It's best when telestomp / porting, but otherwise a BA's range would suit you better.

the reason why smiters can't compete with the top tier chars is mainly because smiters want to saddle themselves with lower life, lower resists and an inferior range 2 weapon, so that they can use a curse which only works at a max of 20% of the time.

you got to admit it, it's stupid.

It'd definitely be stupid--if that was why they aren't a top tier char.

They're certainly top 10, but top 5 would have the necs, windies, trappers, BvC, and Hdin. I'm sure the fifth varies from person to person, but Hdins are the most prevalent in public duels, and in GM, they aren't good 1v1, but some are and the build itself has only a few holes in it. Whatever it is, the smiter build (not just the char's gear) is at a disadvantage to them.

He's certainly good, but not on that high of a scale.

[elationtheory]

as far as i'm concerned, bm is bm. but apparently the rules differ for europe realm, so whatever floats their boat i guess.

the sub par range does matter when you tele smite. but assuming even if it doesn't, ba still > pb. it's not like you need to pump more str to use a ba. if you're using a coa, you have all the str in the world to use a ba. why would you tele stomp with a range 2 weapon when you can tele stomp with a range 3? that's like saying in war, it doesn't matter if a soldier is shot by a rifle or a pistol. he's going to be disabled anyway. so i recommend the pistol over the rifle cos it doesn't make a difference.

holy freeze is bm, as is decrepify. i don't think it's wise to decide a char's equipment based on what kind of bm you think you'd meet. if you wanted to thrive in a bm environment, a smiter isn't the char to use anyway.

golem slow can be waited out. the only time i may recommend a pb is when a barb decides to wear arachs while fighting you. but if it's a bvc you're fighting an uphill battle anyway.

i rate my top 5 with the same top 4 as yours. the last spot is always open for debate but that's not the point. the point of my statement is that smiter players seem to have given up hope of winning necs, windys, trappers, bvcs or whatever, and then blame it on the char. he's not -that- high on the scale of rankings, but he's a lot higher than what people make him out to be.

just because the only kind of smiter they meet are the 'range 2 wielding, 9pcomb carrying, sub-4k life, less than 48fhr variety that relies on a one in five chance to proc life tap and win the duel' kind of smiter, doesn't mean the smiter as a character sucks. i guess the phrase for this would be 'a bad workman blames his tools'. i use my smiter to take out necs, windys, trappers, hammerdins, mages, the occasional bvc, ghosts, sorcs, hybrid, cs and bow zons, some of them godawful, some of them mediocre, some of them average, some of them good, some of which actually impressed me quite a lot.

i've beaten every pvp build in d2 with my smiter at this point of time. i'm not saying i 5-0 good hammerdins or mages, but with skillful playing, it's not the 0-5 thrashing people assume will happen if a smiter faces a hammerdin. as a matter of fact, i consistently 5-0 the garden variety aa telestomping hammerdins in pubs, but that's not a good gauge of skill.

long story short, the smiter as a pvp char is not as bad as people make him out to be. if the smiter players just did a little more thinking, he can actually be built and played as a pretty good char. he's like aston villa. he may not finish top of the table like man united will at the end of this premier league season, but he puts up a fight and can match the big boys on his good days. he sure isn't a s****horpe united, languishing in the coca cola championship, like what people seem bent on insisting he is.

[elationtheory]

on an unrelated note, if exile is allowed in europe realm, does that mean atma's scarab is as well?

[Sass]

the sub par range does matter when you tele smite. but assuming even if it doesn't, ba still > pb. it's not like you need to pump more str to use a ba. if you're using a coa, you have all the str in the world to use a ba. why would you tele stomp with a range 2 weapon when you can tele stomp with a range 3? that's like saying in war, it doesn't matter if a soldier is shot by a rifle or a pistol. he's going to be disabled anyway. so i recommend the pistol over the rifle cos it doesn't make a difference.

Range doesn't matter because a tele stomp can use a ranged 1 weapon and have more than enough reach to hit.

And a better analogy would be directly behind the person with a short sword or a broad sword. Stab him. Does range matter then if both keep in well in arms reach?

holy freeze is bm, as is decrepify. i don't think it's wise to decide a char's equipment based on what kind of bm you think you'd meet. if you wanted to thrive in a bm environment, a smiter isn't the char to use anyway.

That'd be fine, except those aren't necessarily BM (it seems to be where you are, but I've never heard of it except on Doom). The HF skill is widely used in some SvS matches, and so was an example of it. Decrep and golems alone are enough to do that, but again, it's situational.

just because the only kind of smiter they meet are the 'range 2 wielding, 9pcomb carrying, sub-4k life, less than 48fhr variety that relies on a one in five chance to proc life tap and win the duel' kind of smiter, doesn't mean the smiter as a character sucks. i guess the phrase for this would be 'a bad workman blames his tools'. i use my smiter to take out necs, windys, trappers, hammerdins, mages, the occasional bvc, ghosts, sorcs, hybrid, cs and bow zons, some of them godawful, some of them mediocre, some of them average, some of them good, some of which actually impressed me quite a lot.

This might be what makes it to the pubs now, but that doesn't reflect the good smiters, and no, it isn't because of PB's. Even good ones use it, because good ones know how, when and why to use it. Similarly, they know the same for using a BA.

If they need range (or to keep balanced range vs BvC), they use BA.

If they need speed, they use PB.

[elationtheory]

the question is: why would you hold a short sword if you could hold a broad sword?

i use the rules found under Gaming Coalition > Legit Dueling > Audacity Official Useast Legit Dueling Rules > Ladder & Nonladder on some other site.

hf is bm against ias, decrep is bm fullstop, as is lt.

all of the scenarios that make your short sword more useful than a broadsword is considered bm.

it's like saying it is recommended to ride a bicycle in an F1 race because in the event that some ******* decides to throw oil on the road, you won't skid, hit the walls and burst into flames like the rest of the cars.

[struikje]

Except that in d2 duelling there is allways someone who throws oil on the road. I prefer to use a pb too when i play a telesmiter. Just a claygollem is enough to screw you over, and they are not typically bm.

[elationtheory]

clay golem is not an issue imo.

with max block, that pile of **** can't hit you. and with 75fcr, you can evade the nec long enough to wait out the slow duration without taking damage if you hit it.

if you build your smiter to go against bm from the get go, i guess it's up to you. but against every character that can use holy freeze or stack slow without compromising much efficiency, eg another bm smiter or bvc, you're petty much screwed over with your range 2 weapon anyway.

[Sass]

the question is: why would you hold a short sword if you could hold a broad sword?

Symbolism.

The fast, dex based short sword is akin to the PB. The slower, but stronger STR based slashing broad sword is akin to the BA.

In both instances, the target is within range, and weapon damage doesn't impact the effectiveness (so it isn't a matter of how deep the short sword can / cannot go), thanks to smite being a shield weapon.

i use the rules found under Gaming Coalition > Legit Dueling > Audacity Official Useast Legit Dueling Rules > Ladder & Nonladder on some other site.

hf is bm against ias, decrep is bm fullstop, as is lt.

East must use different rules for different players, because I know some sites I have stumbled on use different rules regarding HF. They allow the skill on a paladin, but doom cannot be used for HF (some take exception to a cold sorc, others even ban that).

Decrep though, I have never seen be BM on non-zon players.

all of the scenarios that make your short sword more useful than a broadsword is considered bm.

They are BM to you, but not to others. Even still, you will encounter these instances whether you like it or not. If you are unprepared to make the change to counter it, you will be less effective.

it's like saying it is recommended to ride a bicycle in an F1 race because in the event that some ******* decides to throw oil on the road, you won't skid, hit the walls and burst into flames like the rest of the cars.

You're really not good at making analogies. :(

That analogy would mean the BA is the slower bike, and the F1 is the fast PB. Both will skid on an oil slick (neither weapon makes one immune to HF or slow being applied, so both are affected, much like the oil slick to cars).

However, the car would potentially crash, and the bike fall down. In that, both are crippled.


This wouldn't reflect the PB's ability to maintain speed under slowing conditions.

clay golem is not an issue imo.

with max block, that pile of **** can't hit you. and with 75fcr, you can evade the nec long enough to wait out the slow duration without taking damage if you hit it.

Running away won't help you out. The nec can prepare or even start attacking you, and you will have to worry about being slowed down. That's why BA aren't recommended vs a nec.

if you build your smiter to go against bm from the get go, i guess it's up to you. but against every character that can use holy freeze or stack slow without compromising much efficiency, eg another bm smiter or bvc, you're petty much screwed over with your range 2 weapon anyway.

There are more chars than those two, and are GM in doing so.

You're screwed with only a BA if you don't take those into consideration.

Vs smiters and BvCs, slow is not an issue. They gimp themselves if they stack it. Range will matter in these duels, and indeed, you are worse off using a PB. However, these match ups do not reflect the usual scenario where you'd use a PB, and is a bad example of why PB should not be used.

[elationtheory]

'Symbolism.

The fast, dex based short sword is akin to the PB. The slower, but stronger STR based slashing broad sword is akin to the BA.

In both instances, the target is within range, and weapon damage doesn't impact the effectiveness (so it isn't a matter of how deep the short sword can / cannot go), thanks to smite being a shield weapon.'

i still don't understand why you would use a pb over a ba.

as you said, the range doesn't matter in tele smiting. true.

so a pb works as well as a ba. true.

in other match ups, the pb is inferior to the ba in terms of range, especially since both hit the max ias bp.

my question is this: assuming you're equally adept at both a short sword and a broadsword, and have enough str and dex to wield both at the same speed and cause the same damage, why would you choose the short sword over the broadsword? since the broadsword can do everything the short sword can do in your hands with even more range?

your argument doesn't address the point that the ba can do exactly what the pb can do, plus plus.

'East must use different rules for different players, because I know some sites I have stumbled on use different rules regarding HF. They allow the skill on a paladin, but doom cannot be used for HF (some take exception to a cold sorc, others even ban that).

Decrep though, I have never seen be BM on non-zon players.'

i actually think east has the same gm pvp rules as west. if any league pvpers have any insights regarding this, please feel free to say who is correct.

'They are BM to you, but not to others. Even still, you will encounter these instances whether you like it or not. If you are unprepared to make the change to counter it, you will be less effective.'

actually, no. the things i find bm are exactly the things found bm in the gm league rules i follow. no more, no less.

if i encounter a pker who uses what i recognize as bm methods to duel, i'd ask him to stop using it. if he doesn't, i either just duel anyway and don't care about the outcome, or just stop dueling him. no one points a gun to your head and forces you to engage bm-ers. if they bm, and you can't handle it, don't duel them or just leave the game. if you think you can win anyway, go ahead and take your chances. as i said, no one is forcing anyone to do anything.

'That analogy would mean the BA is the slower bike, and the F1 is the fast PB. Both will skid on an oil slick (neither weapon makes one immune to HF or slow being applied, so both are affected, much like the oil slick to cars).'

there is no 'slower bike'. the ba hits the same ias bps as the pb. i admit the analogy isn't the most accurate. perhaps the comparison between the short sword and broadsword is better. we could stick to that instead.

'Running away won't help you out. The nec can prepare or even start attacking you, and you will have to worry about being slowed down. That's why BA aren't recommended vs a nec.'

yes, correct. running away won't help you win. it however, stops you from losing. if you hit the golem when you're using a ba grief, just tele off, charge off, whatever until you recover. the slow duration isn't that long.

'There are more chars than those two, and are GM in doing so.

You're screwed with only a BA if you don't take those into consideration.'

actually i have.

pallys:

doom on smiter = fail. no damage
doom on hammerdin or foh = fail. no damage.
unless they flash hf while moving around, which doesnt do anything other than break your desynch if you're within range. if they're engaging you, they're using conc or conv. blindspot the hammerdin when the opportunity arises, or just charge lock the foher. with tgods, his foh does piddly damage.

zons:

doom on shield switch = inability to retaliate while you hold your left mouse button down in a charge lock

ice bow on bow switch = fail, no damage. in pvp, there are only 2 bows available to zons: faith gmb or faith mb. anything else is a joke.

sins:

doom on trapper or hybrid? any sin that isn't c/c or s/s is useless.

druids:

doom on shapeshift druids is retarded because they can't reach the ias bp with it. it's also bm.

doom on windys is interesting but also useless because they can't hit 163 fcr breakpoint even if they use spirit monarch, and then you just charge lock them to death.

sorcs:

doom on any sorc means they can't get good damage and fcr unless they use spirit mon. hf is useless on sorcs anyway because the main technique against them is charge, which is unaffected by ias. spirit mon = no block = charge death.

barbs:

bvcs/bvas/bvbs : doom is bm.

wc-ers: no fcr = dead wc-er.


have i missed anything?

there is no instance in a gm duel where a pb outshines a ba. period.

[Sass]

'Symbolism.

The fast, dex based short sword is akin to the PB. The slower, but stronger STR based slashing broad sword is akin to the BA.

In both instances, the target is within range, and weapon damage doesn't impact the effectiveness (so it isn't a matter of how deep the short sword can / cannot go), thanks to smite being a shield weapon.'

i still don't understand why you would use a pb over a ba.

as you said, the range doesn't matter in tele smiting. true.

so a pb works as well as a ba. true.

in other match ups, the pb is inferior to the ba in terms of range, especially since both hit the max ias bp.

That's where the comment on being situational comes from. Both work, except one is slow in cases where you need speed. One lacks range where the other still has it. That's the whole point.

my question is this: assuming you're equally adept at both a short sword and a broadsword, and have enough str and dex to wield both at the same speed and cause the same damage, why would you choose the short sword over the broadsword? since the broadsword can do everything the short sword can do in your hands with even more range?

That would assume you have a weapon with the range of a BA, and the speed of a PB. If we had that, we'd use it.

your argument doesn't address the point that the ba can do exactly what the pb can do, plus plus.

That's because the BA cannot do exactly what the PB does, so naturally, I didn't mention that being the case.

i actually think east has the same gm pvp rules as west. if any league pvpers have any insights regarding this, please feel free to say who is correct.

Let's not turn this into a BM vs GM discussion.

The point is that BA has range when you need it, and PB has speed when you need it. It's up to the player to know the difference and the need for whichever weapon, and both are used effectively.

there is no 'slower bike'. the ba hits the same ias bps as the pb. i admit the analogy isn't the most accurate. perhaps the comparison between the short sword and broadsword is better. we could stick to that instead.

Skill speed breakpoints does not equal IAS requirement breakpoints. Both hit 6 frame smite, but at varying speeds required to do so.

The PB requires less, so when slowed, a high IAS can keep you fast. A BA requires more, so when slowed, you do not keep that speed.

have i missed anything?

Yes, you didn't list a nec ;P

Also, you assume Doom is used only. When mentioning HF flashing, you didn't use it on the smiter (the user). This tactic is pretty common in some SvS circles, where it is GM. It won't be everywhere, but it happens (especially in pubs where you should expect the worst).

there is no instance in a gm duel where a pb outshines a ba. period.

You've already been informed of when PB > BA .