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  1. #41
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    Re: The 1 vs 7 Summon-mancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by AngelLove View Post
    PFSS:

    All summoners must protect merc.
    That is just how it is.
    Some folks will give them maras and fort.
    U guys r wasting your time even talking to this guy!



  2. #42
    IncGamers Member AngelLove's Avatar
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    Re: The 1 vs 7 Summon-mancer?

    There is someone out there.
    Who has seen enough to have seen this done, to a degree.
    For example there is a guy that posted once how he decided to be a jerk
    and grabed a bunch of archers and went PVP.

    Too bad for me, that he did not say what happened next.
    Gang up on me all you want.

    I am waiting for eyewitnesses.



  3. #43
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    Re: The 1 vs 7 Summon-mancer?

    We are waiting for you to realize that this is a flawed idea.



  4. #44
    IncGamers Member NoisemakerArrow's Avatar
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    Re: The 1 vs 7 Summon-mancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by AngelLove View Post
    Do I need to explain to you how the scientific method work? Any theory, no matter how good, is just a theory without evidence to back it up.
    Before you explain it to me, make sure you understand it yourself. Until there is evidence to support it and it has been tested, a theory is not just a theory, it's a hypothesis.

    Quote Originally Posted by AngelLove
    How am I suppose to trust you, when you have given me nothing remotely concrete?
    First of all, I have given you concrete, mortar AND cement.

    Second of all, making stuff up and passing it off as fact is very much encouraged on these forums.

    Third of all, the archers only spawn in Acts 1, 2 and 5, and in only a few places. They shoot slowly, and they shoot at where the person is, not where he will be. They require too much time to kill and revive. Yes, you can still kill someone with this build, since most people don't know how to duel, but it will be frustrating to play, since you will have to get new minions constantly.

    If you want to be BM and use summons, be a town druid.



  5. #45
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    Re: The 1 vs 7 Summon-mancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by AngelLove View Post
    I have been thinking about this, and doing a lot of research.
    But so far I have only found one guy that consider a summon spammer
    to be one of the top 5 dulers.

    There are quite a few PVP summoner guide. But almost all of them suggest
    only 1 point in revive. This strike me as odd (or holding back), for revive
    is the number one pvp skill for a summoner. Skeles simply don't cut it PVP.
    Especially against holy freeze slow, or area effect magic (or both together
    , ie. the hurricane).

    This is what I come up with. The core of the PVP summoner should be
    20 Mastery
    20 revive
    Rest is up to personal preferance. I would opt for:
    20 Skele warrior
    20 Skele mage
    20 Amp (for speed, less aiming = more speed)
    1 in CE for PVM
    1 in decrep for act bosses

    there will be +9 skill from grand charm, +1 from anni, +3 from torch,
    +1 from belt, +1 from ring, +3 from circlet, +3 from necro head, +3 from ammy
    +2 from negma. So without going all out, you have 26 plus skills.

    That gives you 46 revives at 460% enhanced damage.
    Say that you get 46 returned archers at 40 ave. damage.
    With +460% from mastery, +90% from beast, +330% from pride,
    +50% from HOW(wisp projector) +230% from might,
    you get +1160% enhanced damage.
    (if mastery add to BASE damage, this amount will more than double.
    How does this work exactly? does anyone know?
    I will just try to be conservative here and keep it as low as possible.)

    Now one single archer will do 500 ave. damage.
    and 46 of them will give you a wave of 23000 damage, or 20K+
    This amount will double with amp to give you 40K+
    or ONE HIT KILL as some might call it.
    (the PVP penalty for summons is 1/2, not 1/6)

    (I have heard that 15 buged claw vipers will give you 80K+, but it is too evil
    even for me. and don't work against some ppl anyway.)

    If you sommon one Big guy, the monsters won't fan out.
    (less walky, more shooty)
    and teleporting at 9 frame with your 45+ chanmpian archers,
    you will just be mowing down other players like grass.

    If this DOES work, I wish to discourage it. As you will gain nothing by
    distrubing the BALANCE.

    But will it work? That is what I would like to know.
    And what I need your help with.
    (I only know how to build characters the slow way, and have never owned an enigma).

    PS. feel free to copy and past this anywhere you like, just mention my name ^_^
    Hi AngelLove

    Since no one seems able to answer upon your request in stead of just spamming your thread, then I will try to. I intend to only answering your main post, as that is the only relevant post as I see it.

    It is good that you have done a lot of research, and it is sad you're not able to finish the research by making the final tests. However I believe to have a solution to your problem.


    Quote Originally Posted by AngelLove View Post
    (if mastery add to BASE damage, this amount will more than double.
    How does this work exactly? does anyone know?
    I will just try to be conservative here and keep it as low as possible.)
    I would strongly suggest that you write this question in the statistics forum. You see the people in the sub forums (from ama to sorc) does not tend to know much about neither in game mechanics nor pvp, which should be rather obvious from the posts you have recieved. Therefore you won't get many answers except from the frest newbies who are still affected by the general b.net pubby to believe to be very knowing in the world of diablo.

    Quote Originally Posted by AngelLove View Post
    Now one single archer will do 500 ave. damage.
    and 46 of them will give you a wave of 23000 damage, or 20K+
    This amount will double with amp to give you 40K+
    or ONE HIT KILL as some might call it.
    (the PVP penalty for summons is 1/2, not 1/6)
    Do not believe what arreat summits claims to be the correct damage values, check it up by asking here at the statistics forums or at the amazon basin, these guys can read it in the files.

    I am impressed by that you can get 46 revives, however I am not experienced by reviving archers, only by reviving tomb vipers, but I do also know tomb vipers are very limited in the game, and since I can usually get 8-15 tomb vipers and do Andariel, Duriel, Mephisto, and Diablo via there poison clouds (single player, so I have the maps), then I believe that you as well may be able to revive 46 archers, however it probably will take some practice.

    I believe archers deals partly elemental damage, it depens on the once you choose, I'd recommend to choose a type that is immune to your opponent if that is possible. Therefore I do not know if it is correct "just" doubling when considering amplify.

    I believe the pvp penalty for summons is 1/2 * 1/6. I will find a source ASAP, but I will let this stay, since I am not afraid of be mistaken (or to lazy to edit).
    Here is a link: http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/s...d.php?t=323916

    Note the calculations by RTB, he is one of the autorities around here (though he suddenly stopped passing by), and as you can see though it's another type of monster, just 10 of those after pvp penalty, block, and what there else where, gave ~10.000 damage pr. second with amplify damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by AngelLove View Post
    If you sommon one Big guy, the monsters won't fan out.
    (less walky, more shooty)
    and teleporting at 9 frame with your 45+ chanmpian archers,
    you will just be mowing down other players like grass.
    I believe your archers first round will be fired pretty fast however something to consider:
    The arrows does not travel very fast compared to what duel chars are used to (in pvm there are extremely fast though), and therefore you will probably be forced to be somewhat close to your oppenent before your archers can shoot fast enough, so your opponent cannot teleport/run away.

    On the same time, my own experience from vipers tells me that with minion stacking, you may be very well protected, but the monsters are trapped in the stack, and cannot shoot unless you leave the minion stack, so you may have to run a bit backwards before they will start shooting. This may not be much of a problem, since in the moment you're out of the stack (1/25th of a second I believe) then the archers will fire.

    Quote Originally Posted by AngelLove View Post
    If this DOES work, I wish to discourage it. As you will gain nothing by
    distrubing the BALANCE.

    But will it work? That is what I would like to know.
    And what I need your help with.
    (I only know how to build characters the slow way, and have never owned an enigma).
    Why do you worry about balance in a computer game? It really makes no difference if there is one class that beat the rest in player vs. player, after all the majority are still pvm players (last time I checked), and these have no chance against a PK pretty much no matter what char they use.

    After all a summoner with maxed corpse explosion should pretty easily be able to whack down baal runs when having a little minion stacking on top, and that is even some very good players are among the baal runners.

    As mentioned zonefire will make it easy for you to test it, however remember it is just a game, so no hurry.

    Generally now that I have answered all you wrote, then here is my saying:
    First of all there are some classes you will beat consistently with this, but so will bone necromancers (sprit + spear) with a minion stack, and they are not dependent on a timer in the same degree since they can revive less monsters, and find these easier (I believe the common players better remembers where the fat guys walks).

    You will beat amazons most of the time, they have a hard time getting away, and bone decrep + bone prison will force them to make an attack, at that point you will already be on top of them (they attack only a bit faster than you tele), and they cannot avoid the archers.

    You will have trouble against assassins, even with lightning immune monsters given the assassin is not a kicksin / wwsin who will come on to you, but depens on her AI traps to do the biding, all this is due to mind blast. The shadow warrior will most likely get a mind blast in on you before you will hit the assassin (your minions will target the warrior) since the warrior is in front of the assassin, and therefore will be on screen first. As mentioned I'm not certain if your minion will fire at will or you have to run a bit back first, but after being hit by mind blast, the assassin can single you out, and that can get dangerous. You may still beat the common trapper, but the kicksin, and wwsin will go directly at you when you're singled out, and then it will be tough. If cloak of shadows get used then I think you'll have a tough time as well.

    I do not believe you will be able to beat a barbarian who have a whole screen range of leap stunning. Since leap (short leaping when you're on screen) will single you out (if you do not know about this mechanism, then leap stuns everything around it in a radius depending on the skill level), and the barbarian will after that be able to teleport on top of you and whack at you.

    Druids will pose a big problem, since their tornados can hit through a minion stack (it hits everything). If your revives does the damage you claim, remember that they also have to remove the 5 wolves (though I blieve that will only take 1 shot pr. archers and leave plenty of shots), then you might actually have found the perfect anti druid necromancer. Again if you have to run a bit backwards before they shoot, then I think you can get a lot of trouble, since there is not pvp penalty against revives, it usually only takes 2-3 tornados (14k-21k of damage) to remove every revive.

    As for necromancers, well curses like dim vision won't be very fun, since you'll have to teleport on top, if you're required to run a bit backwards before the archers shoot, then spear will get you, if that is not the case, then it could get interesting, however if the necromancer likewise have a lot of revives then it may even things out again (though you should have the advantage if your damage is really that high).

    Paladins won't be that much of a hurdle, unless they desynch out of place, and wait until the 3 minutes have passed. Since paladins can desynch due to their fast charge, you'll have trouble by getting the archers to hit them (since you generally cannot teleport on top of someone you do not know where is). However the paladin cannot really do you much harm likewise.

    Finally sorcereres, if they teleport faster than you, then it requires some great skills to teleport just so you land on top of them, when they have more frames until the next teleport before your archers can shoot. However with the stacked resist, and absorb plus immune revives, you should not fear of loosing to the sorc during the first 3 minutes at least.

    What really is the problem is that necromancers do not pocess a capturing skills like barbarians (leap) and assassins (mind blast), therefor I believe even if your build is as good as it may be, then it will only be the very trained people who will be able to use it with succes, and thus no fear of balance due to what I just wrote above.

    For the matter of life tap, if physical immune archers exists, then they solve this problem, except against assasins and barbarians who can single you out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalkanor View Post
    the damage sounds good but the 1 problum i would like to point out is when you tele with enig u will be in 1 big group so all it would take to kill u would be a strong FireBall or some skill like blessed hammer that can hit you all
    Blessed Hammer does only hit a single target at a time, so no problem there.

    Reviving fire immune archers, and stacked resist with maybe a bit absorb will prevent fireballs from having any effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalkanor View Post
    ya i spose your right and it does sound like fun^^

    one other thing i would like to point out it will be near impsoable to have the full 46 revives running at the same time since they each only last 180 seconds each:(
    It depens on the monster density of the area, and the amount of available areas of the monsters needed. If the player is experienced so it is just a matter of seconds from one area to another, then I blieve 3 areas (3 bosses each area) will be sufficient. This will still give relatively long time of the revives.

    Though as soon as the first 100 revives or so (I think 100 is to may actually) have been used (that is not even 10 minutes totally of dueling), then I am afraid the game will be pretty much emptied for good candidates, though as stated I do really not know how many easily accesible archers there are in the game. Still with the numbers (3 times of reviving) 10 minutes is not a long time at all in a duel game, where people often stand in the town waiting or chatting, and in non pub duels I do not believe this kind of tactic will be legal, simply because of the power of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by sequoia View Post
    I'd always thought summons had a much LARGER PvP penalty than the one the players suffered. It also sounds like you are relying on a merc, which most people shy away from.

    And stay away from LF zons!
    I think (according to the link I wrote) the penalty is 1/6th. Revive is as well not very acceptable, so I see not much of a difference in using a merc, who is to decide what rules there are of the game else than blizzard as long as one plays in a public game?

    I do not believe LF zons will be much of a problem, stacked resist + absorb together with lightning immune archers should solve that.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoisemakerArrow View Post
    You will have low FCR and resists. A Ghost will terminate you, as will LF zons and Fireball sorcs. You won't have block, so other chars will have an edge too. Make sure you don't get hit by Rabies, either. I've seen too many summon-using necros die to desynch Hammerdins to believe minion stack will protect you. Not only does it take 20 minutes to summon all those things, it will take another 20 to resummon once you die (and you will die). And that's assuming people let you get your body back and you remembered to hide your gold so you can rehire your merc. And you'll run out of archers fast.

    It's going to be funny when someone uses Slow Missiles on you.

    The points in Amp are better spent in Bone Wall for the Armor synergy.
    He claimed 9 frames teleport, so he is probably not using the gear of the original post, that was just to show the damage I guess.

    Resist is usually easy solveable with the cost of a few +skills.

    Fearing elements in d2 pvp seems a bit odd in my honest opinion, of course if one is not prepared well enough, elements are some of the most dangerous kinds of attacks, but I do not believe we should assume, that he will walk out with not resist, though his first geat introduction may partly have suggested that, he clearly states otherwise when mentioning the 9 frames teleport.

    Block is determined by dexterity, so I cannot see how you deduce he would have low block? Block will be important when he gets singled out from his minion stack, but even with block, life tap will be destroying, so in a way block could be skipped.

    It is simple mathmatics to know how well minion stack protects, in the case of 46 revives it would enhance his chance of living through a blessed hammer tremedously, but with "just" 3-5 revives the chance, still improved a lot, is not nearly as high.

    Please do not write about things you do not know about, it does clearly not take 20 minutes to revive 46 archers, in pvm necromancers are pretty effective.

    I really don't think slow misile will make much of a difference, since all the misile usually will have to do is to travel from the necromancer on to the amazon after a telestomp, not to mention an amazon using slow missile is a stationary target that has to be inside once screen to the last part of the animation. This makes an easy targets.

    The points in amp does not have anything to do with this thread, he asks wether the damage is possible, and if the build will work, he does not ask about suggestions in placing skill points.

    Quote Originally Posted by AngelLove View Post
    There are a few things I wish to add:

    There is a bug that turns a necro into an invincible vampire.
    There is another bug that gives you untimed, unkillable revives.
    If these bugs exists, then I'd strongly suggest that you make sure Blizzard knows about them. Though I really do not see the big problem in these two bugs, if it turns out the damage of the revives aren't much after all, then if they stay or not, and they can be destroyed or not, does not matter much from the perspective of others, however it will make it a bit funnier (especially with the no timer) for the usual pvm necromancer, so I suggest you share your knowledge about this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleban View Post
    I would say, instead of talking up a build you haven't tried, try it and test it.
    He asks for someone to test it since he does not believe he can do so, since you does not offer a solution to this problem you're really just spamming the thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleban View Post
    Plenty of the PvP Summoner guides list strengths and weaknesses versus various regularly used PvP builds.
    This is no guide, it's a (several) question(s).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleban View Post
    One of the problems you'll have is damage (I think its been mentioned) that is AoE, splash and or piercing. A FC Zon will obliterate you, Fireball sorks will fry you, any lightning trapper that namelocks you with MB will also hit all of your minions, a Hammerdin that sets up a hammerfield that you teleport into will pwn you, etc., etc.
    AoE as long as not elemental (tornado pretty much) is the only real problem, piercing does not hit targets on top of eachother, and splash is the same as AoE. Hammers only hits single targets. They pierce, but do not splash.

    Sure hacks will probably beat him, what did you expect? However stacked resist + absorb will take care of most elemental attackers if you can get to them, and there are amazons pretty easy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleban View Post
    There are counters for any class, and while you may think that 40 revived archers = instant death, in a duel situation the other player is likely experienced and not some noov PvMer that has never been PKed before. Which means they'll have 75% block, max DR, probably some static PDR and MDR, teleport from Enigma, etc., etc.

    So as I said, if you don't want critticism of your build idea, then YOU must go forth and test it, otherwise simply talking up a hypothetical build with nothing to back it up just makes you look ignorant.
    Well then tell me the counter class of the Barbarian? The only counter I can come up with is another stronger Barbarian, otherwise it's pretty even against most classes (Necromancers and Paladins, to some extend Amazons), and pretty dominant against others (Assassins, Druids, and Sorcs).

    Honestly, I really do not believe any duelist concerns about PDR by integer, that is just stupid, since it is so seldom needed, and there are already pretty tight stash limits as it is for many duelers.

    Of course the damage should be calculated with the maximum possible defense of the opponent, what did you expect?

    He does not ask about what you think about his idea, he asks if the pvp enviroment allows for it (if the archers will be as effective in firing as a shadow warrior firing mind blast when an opponent comes close, or if they will be more like slow, and easy avoidable.)

    Further he says he's not able to test it, and asks others to do so, it really makes you look ignorant when you don't read the post you're answering (You had that one comming, I really don't mean it makes you look ignorant, since many people here does it, and I believe ignorant to be decided by the common denominator).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleban View Post
    Before extolling the virtues of a thing, you must first test it YOURSELF, or you just look like an idiot.
    I think you're lucky no one have reported you for flaming, since you do not really explain why it is as you say. It's completely legimite to ask others to test, if one is not able to. In science there are usually the people who makes the theories, and the people who makes the experiments, those who makes the theories uses data from various sources, as AngelLove have done in his oppening post, then the theorists asks the experimentalist to get some data, to check wether his theory, which he got by looking at previous data, holds true. In computer games we are so lucky that it does not have to be like that, but not all of us have the time, or the ability to make these tests. It's "idiotic" to think otherwise. (Again you had that one comming)


    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleban View Post
    Not laughing at you, simply saying don't make outlandish claims about something before first checking it yourself. Its like a physicist saying that perpetual motion is real and simple, but just needs someone else to do the hard work.
    No, as stated there's a clear difference between theory and experiment, that you're writing are both theory. Like if I said the there exist a build that can win every duel, but someone else has to find it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleban View Post
    A person wins a duel when the other person dies. Not because someone has to convince the other they lost. Skeles and skelemagi are known qualities in a build, whereas Revives are not. I highly doubt that in every Summon Necro PvP victory the direct reason is lucky awesome revives. That's statistically impossible.
    What are you talking about, convincing people? Where did that came from? Skeletons, and especially mages are not in any way good enough for strong duels.

    Probably not every victory, but some monsters out there do hit hard, and it may very well be a lot of the victories came that way.

    Nothing can be statistically impossible, it can be statistically improbable, but realistic impossible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleban View Post
    You might have an interesting idea, but all you're doing is talking up something you have no idea of. You're a snake oil salesman in that respect. Plus, you really shouldn't diss the community that has put up many fine Necro guides, or done this very type of research.
    He got the idea from other places, combining data in a way not many have done before, and it needs to be tested, what do you expect when he asks someone to test it?

    This community is past its glory days in my honest opinion. You can find few knowing duelist people in the pvp section, but these does not seem to go much out of there, and you can find some few people who really knows a lot about the game mechanics in the statistics section, but look at the amount of people who reguarly post, and amount of misinformation that goes around. It is not weird that the knowing people seem to dissapear from this community. Finally look at this post, a user asks if someone can test something, and all he gets back is that people finds his suggest laughable.



    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleban View Post
    YOU do the math. Simple. Then come tell how it worked out, and you'll get credit for your innovative idea. But stop trying to get others to do the dirty work for you.
    He has done the math, and also asks help about this as well. You should read his post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleban View Post
    In an attempt to give you fair criticism, I'll go through your OP step by step.
    He does not ask for an opinion, he asks for facts. Only the duel part is opinion demanding, and many before you already answered this, and that incorrect assuming he'd play around like a n00b.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleban View Post
    You have a distinct LACK of research, and there MIGHT be a reason why only one person considers a Summoner in the top 5.
    Again what do you think the point of this thread is?


    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleban View Post
    There's a couple of reasons. The Revive timer, which makes it difficult even with teleport to gather up 46 revived hell archer types. The negatives you list also affect your Revives as well. Revive is NOT the #1 PvP skill for summoners, otherwise it would be more in use. That is just your unsubstantiated claim. And considering that many necros load up on +skills, a 1 point investment can return great dividends on Revive, especially when those points can be added into SM, curses or even a Bone spell, there are several Bone/Summon Hybrid guides for instance.
    I partly agree, but your logic is failed. The argument, A is better than B, otherwise everyone would already know B was the best, can win every argument if it was not failed logic. Either you go all the way, or bone spells are not worth it. He wants 46 revives for a reason, it gives that number when adding the skills, 46 is a lot better than 27, remember that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleban View Post
    Your "core" build requires 105 skill points. Not very many people are going to level a guardian/pat/matriarch to level 94 to test some lurker's half-cocked theory.
    Bad bad example. Level 94 is not the limit where it gets to boring to play on for many people, just look at the ladder, but eventhough, test will usually be done in single player for easy accesibility, and if possible, to ensure lag free environment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleban View Post
    Without going all out? 9 skillers, anni, torch, enigma, and expensive other gear in slots. So not only do you want someone else to do the testing for you, you've restricted it to pretty much the uber rich?
    Wether or not items are expensive are dependent of the wealth one has. For AngelLove they may be expensive, but just look at d2jsp, many there could easily buy such a necromancer, and thereby making it not expensive. Heck one guy I know who started some time after the ladder reset has gotten his hands into lots of stuff by cow leveling and collecting good socketed plain items.

    And yes he wants someone else to test it for him, because he believe it is not possible for himself, is there any problem about asking others do so, when one self are limited? It is a great opportunity if it turns out the build is very good, and if it sucks then it really does not take that much to create it. (Just to test it does not require level 94). If he could not come here asking for this, then this forum would have lost the last meaning it had (okay I did not mean that, sorry).




    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleban View Post
    More expensive stuff here, Wisp and Beast, Pride, etc. And that's conservative? Not to mention that by the time you are able to Revive the 46th monster, your initial Revives are already dieing off.
    Conservative does not come down to the equipment, since we all know what the equipment does, otherwise you can find it at arreat summit, no what is conservative is the ways where one is not certain, then setting these area as low as possible.

    I disagree about the revives, but I have written that to you so many times now I will not write the same again, for further explanation, look up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleban View Post
    Not sure where you're getting all these numbers, but don't you think if these numbers were valid AND the management of 46 Revived archers were possible, that people would be calling this the cookie cutter PvP summoner?
    No, it's failed logic to assume very possible variant of any possible character has ever been tested, not to mention given up to public.

    His numbers seems valid, try testing his sources, however I doubt them, not because I doubt him, no I doubt his sources (Blizzard's homepage).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleban View Post
    I'm not sure why, but every one of your posts is overflowing with drama and gravitas, over a build you yourself have only conceived of in your head, without taking the time to really work out the details. Here's a couple:
    Why are you flaming? This is the sort of things that can get you banned.

    And he sure did look at the details, he looked at the damage calculations, given by the sources he had, and wanted someone to confirm by testing, and wanted someone with knowledge in mechanics to tell how the damage actually is calculated, and how revives works in a pvp environment (cool down, autoaim, etc.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleban View Post
    1. Upkeep of Revives. Maintaining 46, much less 46 of a specific type in random spawning areas imho is nigh on impossible.

    2. Gear requirement. Utterly rediculous for all but the richest of players, making the ability to test a snowball's chance in hell.

    3. Minion stack. This has been mentioned, but you seem all to willing to ignore criticism, but a well aimed fireball, lightning bolt, blessed hammer or any number of AoE/splash attacks will kill you, and your army. A Trapsin would simply namelock you with MB, keeping you and your 46 Revives stunned, while the piercing lightning traps decimate you and your invincible army.
    1. He never talked about how long he wanted to duel, why do you mention this? Upkeeping should not be the problem, the problem should be if he can get his opponents down before the timer expire.

    2. You should try to play this game some more, it is really not hard to get great gear, and finally someone with a single player editor could test it quickly (I do not think AngelLove thought about this).

    3. Do not talk about things you clearly do not know about. Blessed Hammer only hits one target at a time. Elemental damage can be resisted, and absorbed, to a degree that does not make those a threat.
    Though I partly agree with some of your comments, but minion stack is simple as an example the paladins worst nightmare.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleban View Post
    If you want name recognition, try testing your idea, and post a writeup of the success or failure. If you can't be bothered to test it, then whoever does (IF ever) deserves the credit for doing th actual work.
    He cannot test his idea, you write it youself, but still in every post you suggest he should do it anyway, is that not a weird claim? He does not state wether or not he bothers to do anything, it is more a matter of ability, which he states he does not have, is that really so hard to comprehend?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoisemakerArrow View Post
    Yeah, there's a reason for that.



    Dead people will not teleport around with 45 champion archers.

    Dead people, before dying, desynch and hammer, which prevents them from ever becoming dead. It will help YOU reach that state, though.

    A Life Tap wand or Exile will keep people whirlwinding and smiting happily.

    And then come 8 minutes of finding new archers, killing them and Reviving them.



    FHR is what you will need when MBed and trapped, when all your 460%ED archers are just sitting there doing nothing while someone puts their Shadow Dancers in your ***.



    And if you never hit, you never kill. You seem to forget you're dueling people who are alive, not dead. They can do plenty.

    If you were less of a weekend warrior, you would know monsters don't instantly react to your presence, which is why high FCR makes for safe teleporting.

    Archers only hit stationary targets, which aren't too common in PvP.



    All will be decided the second you take to the field against a char that outclasses you.



    They hit you.



    You die.
    No argumentations equals spam, what you just wrote was:

    Spam.

    Partly agree, but hammers does not work great against stacking.

    Physical immune wins against smiters since they cannot single the necromancer out. Whirlwind barb can however, there I agree.

    Spam. You have no idea of the time, so why do you postulate as you have?

    FHR won't help him much when singled out. His only damage source is from archers, and they cannot recover. (Though stun works differently on monsters than what you may think)

    Teleports are limited to as low as 7 frame for the fastest. Many monsters hits faster than that. If you have played a bit pvm on hell, and have been hit by a group of monsters that does more than 1/12th of your hit point, you will notice that you can walk away, but you can certainly not teleport away. When the group is ranged and will to every time fire in the direction you walk out, then you are pretty much chanceless in avoiding a hit.

    Correct, but it requires more than 9 FPS IIRC, and that is monsters that you do not land on top of (you may have noticed you merc often gets a few swing in eventhough you keeps on teleporting). Beside this necro have a merc as well who will probably either make you block (so you won't get to teleport away in time) or anyone who teleports fast enough to avoid the general monster would also likely be stunned when hit by a merc. Therefore your argumentation does not hold valid. It requires to be tested.

    Incorrect, if you played more PVM you'd know.

    Spam.

    Spam.

    Sorry about not quoting every part, this post seems more and more like a waste of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by mynamesucks View Post
    he sure knows how to make a good impression
    Why are you spamming? The math should be enough to make a person decide wether or not he wants to test this build. Are you also one of the folks who vote on politicians depending on how popular they are, and not on what they wish to change in the community?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleban View Post
    Look pal, I didn't say Reviving 46 monsters was impossible. What I said was reviving the SAME monster type in a game with random monster spawns, then rushing to duel before the 3minute monster timer runs out IS.

    Again, if its been done many many times, then you already know whether it would be successful by the commonality of use. If I remember correctly 1.12 has been out for over six months now, and didn't even contain any major gameplay changes. As many people as there are that play this game, and with as many are number crunchers and optimizers, indicates the reason WHY certain builds are cookie cutters and others not.

    While the term cookie cutter has a certain negative connotation associated with it, the bottom line is that they are generally the most effective builds. I don't see why, in the face of glaring evidence to the contrary, you're so gung ho over an idea that I'm sure has been tested, and due to the problems with Revive AI and the 3 minute timer, was thrown out the window as unworkable.
    However you really do not know if it is impossible, so why do you insist?

    Again, failed logic, look at earlier explanation.

    Not many of the people are into the game mechanics, have you never met the average b.net guy, who thinks metoer steals his experience, and poison bugs critical strike?

    What evidence? The so called experienced people who write one thing after another wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleban View Post
    Opponents are not stupid AI archers. 200 FCR Fireball Sorks are not going to sit still and politely wait for your archers to kill them. Its also quite simple in longer duels to just wait out the timer on Revives! Any class in dueling nowadays has Teleport, PDR, resists, etc., etc. Your idea will work great against stupid AI, but even bad duelers with mediocre gear are not going to be surprised by a teleporting summoner. Which is WHY you know of only one person who considers summoners one of the top 5, and probably NOT Revive builds, for all the negatives that have been posted in this thread.

    Keep posting your over the top drama infused posts though, they're good for a laugh.
    It really sounds like you have tested this build, but you keep claiming that it must have been tested because in the time that has passed since the game was released, every single possibility must have been tested. I mean comeon do you know how long time it took before Amazon Basin found out that strafe was not a 2 frame attack? Do you know how many people who now thinks that bears cannot hit 12,5 times pr. second while they in fact can? You're the one making claims here, you have no evidence, and you've flamed quite a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleban View Post
    Then do it. Or are you telling me that you don't have a summoner necro after all this "awesomeness" you attribute to the build? That would be just crazy.
    In every single post you have written this, every time you have got an asnwer, the answer even stands in the very first post, I have answered it several times by now, you even admitted to have read it earlier! Because something looks really good on paper does not mean it is possible for the given person to test it, on paper it also looks like a combination of volcano and mind blast will stun any char in the game (that does not use wsg), and yet no one has tested it yet. You expect way to much of this comunity, and stop flaming the other people please.




    Oh well it seems like the thread keep on repeating it self, I will just stop now, and wont comment on what other people have wroten, since it's probably just the same kind of "no evidence, failed logic, false information, flame" kind, that has nothing to do with the OP, that asks for only three simple things.

    My bottom line is, AngelLove, use a hero editor as written in the top, when you have the time, that's probably the only way you're going to find out.



  6. #46
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    Re: The 1 vs 7 Summon-mancer?

    Jel, I'm not going to quote your excruciatingly long post.

    Suffice to say, the original idea is bad, for any number of reasons that I and other have pointed out. I haven't flamed, nor has anyone else.

    Going on the defensive over an idea that is clearly bad from the outset is a magnet for criticism. As has been mentioned, this basic idea is in the same vein as Callsignapollo's video guides, or mehpistophilis's horribly researched and usually wildly inaccurate guides.

    Some of your responses to my points make absolutely no sense, causing me to wonder if you comprehend what it is you're reading. Such as these:

    1. He never talked about how long he wanted to duel, why do you mention this? Upkeeping should not be the problem, the problem should be if he can get his opponents down before the timer expire.

    2. You should try to play this game some more, it is really not hard to get great gear, and finally someone with a single player editor could test it quickly (I do not think AngelLove thought about this).

    3. Do not talk about things you clearly do not know about. Blessed Hammer only hits one target at a time. Elemental damage can be resisted, and absorbed, to a degree that does not make those a threat.
    1. At most, he limits himself to a 3 minute duel. Do you have any duel experience? I doubt it. And thats if his build can acquire all the Revives (specifically archers) in a quick enough time frame to make it work. Which as I said is highly unlikely, and given that MOST duelers are self-contained and ready to go, all the tactics this build would require are largely considered BM.

    2. Most good duelers would not waste the kind of gear needed to make this build mediocre when it could go on a different build and make it great.

    3. And how do you reckon that any player will be teleporting through acts 1, 2 and 5 fast enough to find multi-resist/immune archers, killing them all quickly enough to have 46 up, then get back to act 1 fast enough before the 3 minute timer starts expiring?

    Again, despite your abnormally long post, which I did read in its entirety, you, like AngelLove here, are not thinking about the simple logistics of such a build that makes what you're suggesting unlikely in the extreme, and is probably why its not the game unbalancing PvP monster AngelLove was hoping to get credit for.

    And as for this:

    No, it's failed logic to assume very possible variant of any possible character has ever been tested, not to mention given up to public.
    Wrong, its quite good logic to assume that in a game with few if any balance changes in years, given the size of the playerbase, and the relative strengths of skills being known inside and out, that MOST decent builds have been posted. Sure, there are still possible wacky variants out there, but if I were to say that a teleporting max Static Field sorc with no finisher was the new ultimate dueler and could someone test it for me, I'd be laughed off the forum.

    The fact that both AngelLove and now you have been given well thought out responses with accurate criticism is more courtesy than either of you deserve.



  7. #47
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    Re: The 1 vs 7 Summon-mancer?

    First of all, I whish to make something clear, that may have been missed in my previous post.

    The OP asks for the following three things:
    Help with testing of a build, here the reason is due to the believed way damage of archers are calculated.

    No one has done this.

    Help with someone confirming that the damage actually are calculated by this.

    No one has done this, only talked about he should consider block, etc., though this was never a part of his original post.

    Confirm how well archers respond to the PvP environment.
    Here I agree with many on the look of the offensive part, and wether or not it's possible to revive 46 monsters. I do as well believe it to be unlikely, but I still believe a skilled player may actually do it.
    Likewise I do know that the archers does not shoot in the first moment, but the cool down timer does not interfer before the first shot (just look at the speed of the shadow master and tell me if you can teleport past that, not even at 7 frames you can), but they shoot very fast, the only reason that people get past monsters with more than 9 frames teleport, is because monsters do not instant hit, when they swing, like the shadow warrior.

    However if the necromancer has stomped someone, it will be almost an instant hit, given no previous rounds have been made of firing, and given the necromancer does not need to move back a little before the archers will shoot. Beside, if anyone have teleported with a merc, they know he still makes some swings at stuff even at that speed, since the necromancer has a merc, it is very well possible for him to actually stop the teleporting character. If the opponent on the other hands teleports slower than 9 frames, he'll mostly be caught anyway. Of course there are exceptions, but the biggest one in this are the paladins, who in it self really cannot do much until the timer expire.

    Now if no one has a comment on the OP 3 questions, then pr. definition what they write in this topic is spam.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleban View Post
    Jel, I'm not going to quote your excruciatingly long post.

    Suffice to say, the original idea is bad, for any number of reasons that I and other have pointed out. I haven't flamed, nor has anyone else.

    Going on the defensive over an idea that is clearly bad from the outset is a magnet for criticism. As has been mentioned, this basic idea is in the same vein as Callsignapollo's video guides, or mehpistophilis's horribly researched and usually wildly inaccurate guides.

    Some of your responses to my points make absolutely no sense, causing me to wonder if you comprehend what it is you're reading. Such as these:



    1. At most, he limits himself to a 3 minute duel. Do you have any duel experience? I doubt it. And thats if his build can acquire all the Revives (specifically archers) in a quick enough time frame to make it work. Which as I said is highly unlikely, and given that MOST duelers are self-contained and ready to go, all the tactics this build would require are largely considered BM.

    2. Most good duelers would not waste the kind of gear needed to make this build mediocre when it could go on a different build and make it great.

    3. And how do you reckon that any player will be teleporting through acts 1, 2 and 5 fast enough to find multi-resist/immune archers, killing them all quickly enough to have 46 up, then get back to act 1 fast enough before the 3 minute timer starts expiring?

    Again, despite your abnormally long post, which I did read in its entirety, you, like AngelLove here, are not thinking about the simple logistics of such a build that makes what you're suggesting unlikely in the extreme, and is probably why its not the game unbalancing PvP monster AngelLove was hoping to get credit for.

    And as for this:



    Wrong, its quite good logic to assume that in a game with few if any balance changes in years, given the size of the playerbase, and the relative strengths of skills being known inside and out, that MOST decent builds have been posted. Sure, there are still possible wacky variants out there, but if I were to say that a teleporting max Static Field sorc with no finisher was the new ultimate dueler and could someone test it for me, I'd be laughed off the forum.

    The fact that both AngelLove and now you have been given well thought out responses with accurate criticism is more courtesy than either of you deserve.
    Thank you for replying Kaleban, I'll answer each of your points one by one in the way they are quoted.

    I think I may have made a mistake, since the two of us may have a different understanding of flaming. To me flaming is to aquire another person with negative charged qualities, that for the first, the offender cannot know anything about, and second, it does not have anything to do with the debate the offended are participating in. I find that it has been done a lot of times by many in this topic, but I am not moderator, and I am not one to feel offended on other peoples way. That is also why I have not choosen to report this thread to a moderator.

    Funny how you mention names, but what do you know about these names? If it is the same mephistophelez that I'm thinking about, then you're badly mistaken.

    CallSignAPOLLO do very much for this community, who is pretty much getting wider and wider with more people who are not used as much to guides as to youtube. If he would just take his time to first write the guide on the forums, get the critique, then rewrite it, get some more critique until it was generally acceptable, and then making it into a short youtube video, then he would honestly be one of the most giving in this community of all times!

    1. Read his own posts again, he does not want to "own" a duel place, he wants to go out, summon the bad guys, go back, let it go "bam bam bam", and then pretty much just leave the game. That I believe it will not go like this is clearly stated in my post, however I still believe it is one of the areas that needs to be tested. So this point really does not matter much, he asked how it would go in general pvp, and he has many times got told, that the revives won't last long if he manages to get 46 of them.

    2. What do you mean about wasting? If they already have it they can always mule. Anyway it does not matter, the proper thing will always be to test it in the most lag free environment first hand, and that is over single player these days I assume.

    3. I clearly posted I have no experience with archers, heck I don't even remember what acts they spawn in (read that you do), but I do believe that if a person train something, then they'll get better at it, and I do believe that if there are enough unique critters (which gives a lot of minions) in a certain area, then it does not take many areas, so it will come down to killing speed, since one can teleport to the right location before engaging battle.

    I repeat, I never claimed it would be good in pvp, actually I do not believe it will, read my first post where I write how it will go against the common opponent in each class form, and you'll see my points. However I believe this is something that needs to be tested, and I will come in on the last, and most important part about this in a moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleban View Post
    Wrong, its quite good logic to assume that in a game with few if any balance changes in years, given the size of the playerbase, and the relative strengths of skills being known inside and out, that MOST decent builds have been posted. Sure, there are still possible wacky variants out there, but if I were to say that a teleporting max Static Field sorc with no finisher was the new ultimate dueler and could someone test it for me, I'd be laughed off the forum.
    It is by far incorrect to claim that: Because something has never tested to be true, it must be false.

    Yes we can talk about probability, but since we do not know much about the player base in general, this is pretty much a lost cause, and you claim 6 years to be a sufficient period. On what grounds?

    Your example with the static field sorc is not very good, because it needs the mathmathics to make it valid. AngelLove has this math behind his suggestion, and he also asks if the math is correct.

    Now the fact is that since no one has answered anything else, than how such a build on general basis will do in pvp I think I can safely assume that you do not know if the math is correct, and you have not tested it. I do not know if the math is correct, and I have not tested. No one in this thread probably has. And do you know what? No one at all probably have. Look at the statistics forums, Orphan made a post about the speed of some in game monsters. I bet that 99% of the people on this forum, and 99% of the people of the entire community did not know this!

    You did by the way ignore my example of strafe just as well, but it proves that there are still things that needs to be tested, to claim that we know everything there is to know about diablo, how simple the game may be, is just wrong. It is like when the world claimed that there was no more to discover, just to few years after finding out that vira existed (or something like that, I don't really remember).

    One of the areas that has the least information is actually revives. Can you maybe tell me the damage output if we replace archers with black souls? Can you tell me the amount of souls I need to be effective as a function of the opponents resist given equal skills?

    So Kaleban, I believe you as well as many others in this thread has answered question nr. 3, though with some wrong info (blessed hammer hitting through a minion stack, who makes this up!?) but no one has answered question nr. 2, or nr. 1, and therefore further writings seems like spam IMHO. That is unless someone answeres these questions.

    Beside look at the posts, and look at people like mii_the_people or ddclone, who have done nothing else than to insinuate that AngelLove is what I would call a n00b. And that is unacceptable! Here are some examples:

    Quote Originally Posted by ddclone View Post
    "All summoners must protect merc.
    That is just how it is.
    Some folks will give them maras and fort."



    Can u tell me how to give maras to a merc? Do you even know this game at all?
    Uh huh what is next? Are you going to go through spelling mistakes? People claimed that blessed hammer goes through minion stack, that is by far a worse mistake, since that would make a hammerdin feel safe, when he in fact is in danger. No need to points out the obvious by spamming the thread. Stick to the OP, no one forced you to comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by ddclone View Post
    U guys r wasting your time even talking to this guy!
    Again why this spam? You are indulging in a flame war by these comments, and if it was my board you I would have had to have a talk with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by mii_the_people View Post
    We are waiting for you to realize that this is a flawed idea.
    That is not the meaning of the OP. The OP has three clear questions. The idea of complete domminace in PVP is flawed, that has been pointed out by many, but the fact that the archers might really pack a punch, well no one has been able to write much against that except that block should be taken into consideration. But the math of the game aren't even clear for the people who have written in this post, and none have taken time to test it, so what you're writing is more like +1, and that is also spam.

    Quote Originally Posted by mii_the_people View Post
    Don't forget about mephistophilis! i can see a lot of parallels between all three of these guide writers.
    If we're thinking about the same person, then I would say that said person have way more authority on these boards (or at least should have) than you.

    I am not saying I do not agree with quite a lot what has been written, but comeon people, question nr. 3 has been answered, no it will not do well in pvp against every class, but if the archers acts like this and this it may actually do well against some (refer to my first post)

    And I will repeat, try to ask your second question, about wether auras multiplies or adds with skeleton mastery damage boost in the statistics forums, there are much higher odds of getting the correct answer there, than here.


    Edit: Though this really should not be about this, I'd like to emphasize: Because something never have been proven wrong, does not make it right.
    Because something have never been proven right, does not make it wrong.



  8. #48
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    Re: The 1 vs 7 Summon-mancer?

    Jel.

    Callsignapollo's video guides suck, period. They always contain misinformation, are poorly researched, and generally are very poor compared to written guides that are stickied here. The video format is interesting, but the important part, information fails.

    There are two Mephs. Mephiztophelez (spelling lol) who has contributed a great deal, and Mephistophilis, who's guides and information are even worse than Apollo's.

    And in regards to what AngelLove wanted, he's submitting an idea for a PvP build. Rather than waste time to test a baloney idea, he got shot down by other forumers who have some knowledge. Of course, I'd like to hear from the super experienced duelers too, but in general I doubt they'd waste their time on such drivel.

    But in regards to the idea, people aren't going to do the dirty work for something that is CLEARLY bad from the outset. And for ALL the reasons already mentioned. Neither of you understand breakpoints, minion AI, etc.

    As to the point about secret powerful builds no one has thought up yet, well thats just malarky. You think no one has EVER tested Revive in a PvP setting since 1.10 came out? Foolishness on your part. This game has been out for over a decade, and just numerically there are not enough combinations of skills and points to still have some uber build no one has thought of laying around.

    Most of your arguments are logical fallacies, such as your last statement. An experiment requires a hypothesis, empirical testing, and then comparison and conclusion to established results.

    Many guides, or ideas, never get past the hypothesis stage because of previous work in the field, that clearly shows it as being unworkable. Common sense in other words.

    Despite the FACT that Revive AI is terrible, and that teleporting minion stacks don't always fire all at once, or that minions don't lead targets, and that opponents MOVE, the two of you are for some reason googly eyed over this idea.

    Whatever, I can't convince you, and I'm done wasting my time. If he builds it and wastes me, good for him, he'll have proven me wrong. To quote a hero of mine:

    "I'm sure on some planet your fighting style is effective... but your weak link is, this is Earth..."



  9. #49
    D2/3 Necromancer & Witch Doctor Moderator Mad Mantis's Avatar
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    Re: The 1 vs 7 Summon-mancer?

    This thread is closed. The discussion, which was not very fruitful from the start, has degenerated into petty name calling and butting of heads. I'm all for discussion, but not in this way.




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