no more attributes

[konfeta]

Because you're wrong. Blizzard removed, not changed, but removed one aspect of how we can do customization. We can't customize our base stats anymore. The game does it for us automatically. That's called removal, not change.

If they re-allocated how you improve your attributes, it's called change, not removal. Removal of stat customization would be removal of the stat system itself.

Also: can you explain to me what problem removing base stat customization fixes? because I still don't get it..

O.K. Let's go with 100 levels and 5 stats per level. 500 stats. In this game, stats have a greater impact on your character's performance: for example, Willpower can be modified by a Wizard passive skill to grant massive bonuses to spell damage on top of what boosts it would originally do. While, let's say, an average Wizard distributes these stats evenly to equip quirky items such as plate and boost base HP through vitality, a glass cannon Wizard distributes most of his attributes on Willpower.

Result - A Wizard that pumps Willpower rapidly rises against the damage:monster HP curve. Expense of HP or wearing plate you say? Who gives a **** about HP, the Wizard 1 shots everything it encounters.

Result of the Result - Blizzard has to account for this massive possible swing in power. A character that does elementary min-maxing of stats is suddenly light years ahead of others in terms of damage output, to the point of where it's supposed weakness becomes irrelevant.

My point is, attributes that have meaning and can be assigned absolutely freely leads to min-maxing, which leads to power levels of variety that some characters will be exponentially more powerful than other builds. When your game has the potential to have your a single character literally outdamage the rest of his team combined because of a specific min-max strategy, you have a balancing nightmare. The only way to avoid this nightmare is to either make attributes worthless again or greatly kill the variety in skills.

Axing the ability to freely assign attributes results in Blizzard being allowed to give these stats actual impact. They can actually have a character that has 50 more willpower than another character to be significantly different based on that difference alone and not worry about some smart *** breaking the game.

Let me rephrase it: by removing per-level-stat allocation Blizzard was freed up to make a vastly more varied skill system and improve the stat system itself. This is a less is more situation. This decision, essentially, allowed them GIVE you options for customization.

This is why I see views that they are killing customization as patently absurd. Yes, they could have figured out a way to keep base stat allocation and have it work with all improvements to the rest of the game. But the point is, it's ludicrously difficult. They sacrificed one aspect of the series so that the rest could improve manyfold.

They could leave those out as well. Should make for even easier balancing of everything.

For this concept to work there need to be items at every level that any character can equip that give enough boosts to make it worthwhile. It is the only way you can artificially work around the imposed penalties. I don't like the restrictions.

It's called finding balance in what to keep and what to not keep. Slippery slope argument honestly isn't the best one against such a gray area. They need to streamline it to an extent. They aren't streamlining for sake of streamlining, they are doing it for sake of having good gameplay.

[voraginous]

If they re-allocated how you improve your attributes, it's called change, not removal. Removal of stat customization would be removal of the stat system itself.

They removed our ability to customize our base stats. That's removal of base stat customization. Sorry, you're just plain wrong on this.

O.K. Let's go with 100 levels and 5 stats per level. 500 stats. In this game, stats have a greater impact on your character's performance: for example, Willpower can be modified by a Wizard passive skill to grant massive bonuses to spell damage on top of what boosts it would originally do. While, let's say, an average Wizard distributes these stats evenly to equip quirky items such as plate and boost base HP through vitality, a glass cannon Wizard distributes most of his attributes on Willpower.

Result - A Wizard that pumps Willpower rapidly rises against the damage:monster HP curve. Expense of HP or wearing plate you say? Who gives a **** about HP, the Wizard 1 shots everything it encounters.

Result of the Result - Blizzard has to account for this massive possible swing in power. A character that does elementary min-maxing of stats is suddenly light years ahead of others in terms of damage output, to the point of where it's supposed weakness becomes irrelevant.

My point is, attributes that have meaning and can be assigned absolutely freely leads to min-maxing, which leads to power levels of variety that some characters will be exponentially more powerful than other builds. When your game has the potential to have your a single character literally outdamage the rest of his team combined because of a specific min-max strategy, you have a balancing nightmare. The only way to avoid this nightmare is to either make attributes worthless again or greatly kill the variety in skills.

Axing the ability to freely assign attributes results in Blizzard being allowed to give these stats actual impact. They can actually have a character that has 50 more willpower than another character to be significantly different based on that difference alone and not worry about some smart *** breaking the game.

Let me rephrase it: by removing per-level-stat allocation Blizzard was freed up to make a vastly more varied skill system and improve the stat system itself. This is a less is more situation. This decision, essentially, allowed them GIVE you options for customization.

This is why I see views that they are killing customization as patently absurd. Yes, they could have figured out a way to keep base stat allocation and have it work with all improvements to the rest of the game. But the point is, it's ludicrously difficult. They sacrificed one aspect of the series so that the rest could improve manyfold.





It's called finding balance in what to keep and what to not keep. Slippery slope argument honestly isn't the best one against such a gray area. They need to streamline it to an extent. They aren't streamlining for sake of streamlining, they are doing it for sake of having good gameplay.

This is a good argument, BUT why not balance the game towards that imba glass cannon and let people play underpowered hybrids if they want? Or better yet, why not make it so glass cannons simply have weaknesses? Like monsters which do tons of damage per shot. That's one of a HC Necro's greatest fears: getting one shotted by a gloam whose bolts go through your minions. If all stats have meaning (str, vit and dex) your glass cannon example will get torn up. He has no life, no block, no armor class. I think your example only works when the willpower stat and the particular skill you're talking about are already overpowered.

[konfeta]

They removed our ability to customize our base stats. That's removal of base stat customization. Sorry, you're just plain wrong on this.

O.K., we are operating under different definitions. They removed an aspect of stat customization. They didn't remove actual stat customization. Yes, you are right, they removed something. What they didn't do, again, is remove actual stat customization.

For some reason, people are throwing a fit and are equating a change to the system of stat distribution to removal of the whole thing. :rolleyes:

This is a good argument, BUT why not balance the game towards that imba glass cannon and let people play underpowered hybrids if they want? Or better yet, why not make it so glass cannons simply have weaknesses? Like monsters which do tons of damage per shot. That's one of a HC Necro's greatest fears: getting one shotted by a gloam whose bolts go through your minions.

Because then underpowered hybrids get screwed, thus ironically, removing choice in this game as it will be forcing you to play specific glass cannon builds to do well.

On the more serious note, the entire point of balance is that different play styles don't get screwed. The whole idea is that a person can have fun playing this game no matter what their preference is - whenever it's a glass cannon Wizard or a Wizard that mixes it up in melee, etc.

The job for Blizzard here is to make a game sufficiently challenging so that intelligent character building remains without ensuring that only certain types of builds dominate. There will still be "best builds" for min-maxers. But the point is, there won't (or at least shouldn't) be builds that completely devastate the game at no effort. I think no one wants Hammerdins or Furyzons or Noobcannonzons in Diablo 3, do they?

Now, I am not saying that it's impossible to balance a game with such extreme power swings. What I am saying, is that it's extremely difficult to do, and it is simpler for Blizzard (and thus better for the players) that they modify the game to accommodate easier balancing. Bonus points come from the idea that this particular accommodation allows them to include more varied gameplay effects (stats being significant, skills interacting with stats, skill runes, etc.).

[CarsV]

They are shutting doors that have been proven to be a nightmare to balance, and are adding ones that are easier to maintain. Now, I would rather that they figured out a way to fix the doors, but given the choice I understand the developers' concern.

Besides, until we see what other doors have been open, we don't know how "limited" our characters are.




Str for equip.
Dex for equip.
Energy base if you are twinked, or points until you find mana leach.
Rest in vit.

I am honestly not seeing how stats were "huge." Never felt that way, probably never will (in terms of Diablo 2).

It's the way attributes and +attribute items were implemented in D2 that made them somewhat broken, not the attributes themselves. They should be huge, they are what makes a character unique. In D2 they weren't huge when they should've been.

So Blizzard's solution is to just toss them out the window... Pretty elementary and lame of a solution, if you ask me.

[Bad Ash]

Ok I 100% dis-agree with the Glass cannon should be made which is fine because you can just counter it with a one-hit monster. Blizzard has acknowledged how big of a flaw this is, and you can tell how big it is if you ever HAVE played D2 HC. There isnt a challenge in getting 1 shot on a lag spawn that you have no chance against...thats just not fair.

Bottom line in terms of stats, and this is HUGE for me and my style of play. I DO NOT want to have to pick a char based on what items I want to use. That is stupid in my humble opinion. I should not be restricted by the game to have to choose between something like that, with the exception of the 1% of items that are class specific.

I dont want to play a barb. period. I will possibly when i tire out the other options, but I am not a barb fan, even though he looks cool I dont want to try him out first, I want to try a wizard so far. Right now I am already limited in the things I want to do, so OUTSIDE of skill specialization, after I exhaust all of those options, im done with the wizard. cool.

In D2 there were 3 ways to customize a char. Gear, Stats, and Skills. Now so far there is Gear and Skills. 33% replayability gone for me and actually probably more when you factor in the diff gear and skill combos. The gear can not be varied nearly as much because I am restricted on what I can wear.

[konfeta]

Carsv, read my block of text if you can stomach it (I am sorry!) for the argument against your comment.

@Cosby

Skill customization/variety has been massively expanded by both changes to the skill system itself and addition of skill runes. 33% became 66%; what we lost in customization of base stats we gained in customization of skills - there will probably be more variance in builds based on skills alone than in Diablo 2's stat/skills combination.

Attribute customization is now tied to item customization, and potentially elixirs and quests. It became less, but rest of the game was improved. Now we have potions that actually mean something - need a short-term damage boost for your Wizard? Drink a Willpower potion and go to town!

Gear customization was probably expanded, I don't know though. We will have to see about that.

Overall, the way I see it, Diablo 3 already has more choices that are more varied as a result of a simple sacrifice.

[Bad Ash]

before I go further on this...(page 6 already..wow hot topic) let me say that I AM always willing to try this out before I bash whole heartedly, I am just presenting my assumptions on how its going to be. (we all know what happens when you assume...)

But Kon, we all know what Diablo series is about. It was even said in the very first gameplay video at WWI. Diablo is ALL ABOUT THE LOOT. So if they are restricting me using that loot, it is restricting what diablo is all about?

I am really really excited about the power runes, and new skill tree (just posted a reply on the skill tree thread), but that doesnt mean I am less happy about potentially losing my stat distribution. I enjoyed the variety of customization and again my ability to dictate what my char wore, how it looked, and what direction it was headed in. Now I can control its spells, and its spells some more and some more...not the most exciting thing for the whole game to be focused on.

remember, its all about the loot, lets not limit what people can wear.

Are Charms coming back? haha, who wants to go farm +5 to str charms baby!

[konfeta]

And it is still about the loot. Skill runes are loot, mate! This game's skill system is a simultaneous mix of Diablo 1, 2, and WoW.

O.K., I can't argue the point if the stat limitations will significantly restrict item wearing, but we will see. I have faith that Blizzard will figure something out for platemail using Wizards and that they have the imagination to have stat customization outside of what we already seen - items, potions, quests.

I mean, the Skill Rune system was a very pleasant surprise. I think they will come up with something similar for item equipment prerequisites.

[visom]

i can't equip heavy melee weapons/armor on my wizard --> i can't make variant/non cookie-cutter builds on my wizard --> my replayability decreases --> i quit the game sooner

i see absolutely no upside to LESS replayability

do you really want a caster class that will ALWAYS have to play like a caster, do you really want that ? that kind of mentality is NOT what made diablo 2 famous

What kind of mentality IS diablo2 made of? A sorceress having as much strength and stamina as a barbarian? and instead of using her eye catching magic skills like she's known for, she just dumbfounds us with their muscular arms and starts bashing monsters head with a maul bigger than her body? Seem's like a "special" type of mentality.

The number of item types that were class restricted was very low in D2, just because you didn't play a melee sorc or a barb/druid/pala with a bow or some other crazy combo like that does not mean nobody has. Removing the choice completely from the game is beyond retarded.

So I'm guessing that the amazon should be able to use holy bolt, a sorceress should be able to use leap attack, the necromancer should be able to use martial arts move? Is this the type of thing you're trying to aim for? Wouldn't your logic be ridding the characters of their uniqueness? Why not go back to the old Diablo1 system where any characters can use any spells, and a sorcerer can have warrior stats and skills whereas the only sorcerer trait that he has is his name?

Do you feel the same way when the class specific item was introduced in LoD? "OMG I WANT THAT SHRUNKEN HEAD FOR MY PALLY"

[cbr]

Is it me or are you confusing items and the ability to use them with class skills?