WD in full plate? Is it possible?

[Kiley]

I have to agree with zerosugar: a game that allows us to have it all is going to look silly and have less challenge. I think having limits is one of the great challenges of RPGs.

Now, I wouldn't mind at all if I saw some axe mage being successful. That would be original and neat. It would look silly, but seeing one or 2 silly chrs once in a while is fine with me. But what I don't want to see is hundreds of axe mages using axes because of some res bonus on a famous unique axe and because anyone can use axes. There's got to be some middle ground: There should be some limitation like what zerosugar said, even a punishment for a mage being so bold as to use an axe. I think the punishment is d2 is simply an unoptimal chr--you must put points in str which means fewer points in mana or vit making you a worse mage.

I'm also in favor of armor limitations per class (though I'm sure this will never happen in a Diablo game). Someone above mentioned there is no reason whatsoever why a mage can't use heavy armor. Well, there is. I hate to bring it up, but it is described in D&D and it makes good sense: a mage needs to wave his arms and fingers about in delicate ways which heavy armor would interfere with. The mage may be perfectionist; he can't have armor lessen his chances of messing up a spell. Also, the shoulder plates and neck gaurd might inhibit a bow user from reaching behind to access a quiver, drawing back the bow, and looking around fast. A simple limitation of being able to use field plate at most with chain mail underneith would eliminate these problems and give almost the same protection. It just can't be the BEST protection in the game.

Thus, I'm not asking for devastating limitations, just a few minor things that would make sense. The alternative is ummm...the armor has rubbery "magical" shoulder and neck parts that bend easily. Or, the arrows jump out of the quiver and land in your hand. If some of this stuff was explained in-game or in the booklet, all would be cool with me. But nothing is explained because they can't explain it and they used non-thorough, cheap methods in their game design.

Orphan, the problem with your explanation of the elite forms of armor is this: it still amounts to a "force field" explanation for at least some of the armors. So you might say the dusk shroud is a different stronger material than steel, so it has higher def than full plate. Ok, fine, fine... The problem is the dusk shroud only covers the body and a bit of the arms. Full plate is drawn in the game showing plates that cover the arms, wrists, knees, legs, everything except head hands and feet. So the dusk shroud would have to be drawn as a 'dusk snow suit' for your explanation to apply. I guess we'll have to assume the old magical force field is giving it that extra def to make it higher def than full plate.

Also, if demon hide is stronger than steel, how can the demons move in the first place?

Some of the mentioned hero ideas from fantasy novels I have to disagree with. For instance the mage who was also an expert with the bow kind of sounds like he has it all. I think these characters are too much like Charlie Sheen who has 3 different stunt men to do the pro-archery parts and and the pro-spell caster parts. I'm not buying it.

The protagonist know-it-all heros become like Superman or Count Dracula with all their wonderful abilities. Dracula is up against a spear thrower? No problem, he'll just turn into fog. An army is approaching? No problem, he'll just turn into a bat and fly away. The army is all over the land? No problem, he'll use his great hiding ability to hide out in his giant castle since he is so rich too. Someone is about to give away his secret hiding place? No way, he just uses his mind powers to control the will of the snitch and silence them. By the way, he is centuries old and is an expert fighter and scientist too.

I think we already have the ability to slaughter thousands of monsters and that should be enough. Maybe there could be a small number of these Supermen who are best possible archers AND mages in one chr, but I'd only be happy if these were the top 100 or less players on bnet.

Anyway, all of the little immerison problems I have could even be solved with cosmetic graphics added, explanations mentioned in-game by NPC's or even just in the instruction booklet. Cain could just say in gossip that some magic armors "pull" incoming weapons toward them and away from unprotected areas.

So with the firebolt example, all they would need is a cosmetic pillar of flame accending higher and higher with more synergy points invested in it, or more sparks flying with more investment, and this would give the impression that the fire is hotter and more destructive than a big meteor. These are simple solutions that would make the game more understandable and make us "feel" the gameworld better. I'm sure they will go some extra distance with d3. The more the merrier they say...

OMG, this is not D&D. I don't care if D&D said mages need to wiggle their toes, ears and fingers, and dance a jig to cast a fireball. Who is to say Diablo mages have to do anything but think *burn biatch burn* to cast a fireball?

The whole point of responding to this thread, was this is not D&D, stop using those conventions as laws to rule what a player can or cannot do with their characters. Since when did Diablo become anything but Diablo, why are you quoting a 35 year old pen and paper game to tell people what a game not even part of that franchise can or cannot do.

This is sad, in a few years, people will be telling me my hunter in another game can't use a mace because World of Warcraft said hunters can't use maces.

[stillman]

Ok, fine with the mages wearing armor then, but what about a bow expert using a full helm with the little eye slits? How would they hit flying things if their vision is so limited... Some of the D&D rules are based on logic and physics, that's all I'm saying. I like the one about theives not being able to use their thief skills in armor greater than studded leather or w/e, but they can still wear it if they chose and not have all their powers while wearing it. I just want them to apply 'similar to D&D rules' if it helps make sense in the game.

For instance, spell interupt is in both D&D and Diablo2 IIRC.

[Mad Mantis]

In D2 you lost almost nothing by making a Spellcaster wear high strength armor since those points weren't really needed besides in Vitality. The point distribution for every class was the same; enough in strength for gear, if you don't block enough in Dex for gear, otherwise enough for max block and the rest in vitality. The first thing they need to do is add a stat point system that actually means something. A good mage should have put points in energy since that would help them out.

Adding decent penalties in a system where stat points mean something will still benefit the archetypical mage, but allows people to experiment with other options. If I wanted to make a Melee Sorc I could, but I'd know that I would be nowhere near as powerful a mage as a pure Fireball Sorc.

Adding restrictions based on physics could be useful, provided that it doesn't make the game less fun.

[Zerosugar]

Oh you mean that very good book series where the person with the potential to be the most powerful wizard the world has ever known was also a warrior with a sword and able to bow shot a fly out of the air at 200 yards? *wink* In your world Richard couldn't use a bow or a sword, or if he could, he couldn't use magic. Think before you quote a novel series that breaks every convention you are trying to support.

I can guess what successful fantasy MMO had those same class item limitations. The same game you cited as ruining the gaming industry. Not a very good pedigree for advancing gaming, when you suggest it must be good just because X game did it, then claim that same game is destroying gaming.

So far you have been wrong on citing novels, and have given one successful game to support you, while you have also claimed that same game has destroyed the gaming industry.

I contend you really only think games should follow your rules because D&D said so

Its cool to disagree, I really did enjoy the games you mentioned and The Sword of Truth novels are great, I'd continue a discussion on those in the appropriate forum. I don't take anything personal and good to find people with good taste in books.

You are putting words in my mouth and twisting what i say never said WoW was the downfall of games or anything of the like..i talked about the players and their mentality. I never mentioned i was pushing for a fresh start either with D3 although I'm happy we are getting it except for a few things i would like to see personally. You need to read what you reply to no offense intended.


As far as Richard goes he was s WAR WIZARD!!/BattleWizard ..a hybrid of sorts if you want to call it that. One that hasn't been seen in thousands of years. The Wizards in the book all wear plain robes and do not fight with swords..as i said the more plain the more powerful. He was also the seeker which is why he was using a sword. Are you trying to say the sorceress class in D2 is a Richard Rahl of sort and also a seeker?..where does it say that or did you pull that out of your hat .

As for gaming reference..look at 90% of all the arpgs/mmos out there and to quote yourself lol

I honestly have no clue what you are talking about. Change is not adding in a bunch of arbitrary item restrictions that have been used in every online game since 1998

As for you fighting for your right to wear plate..you are exactly what i think is wrong with the gamers today without trying to insult. They want it all, even if it makes no sense or takes away from what could be a deeper and engrossing game. It's not because D&D said so or the myriads of novels that has been written way before computer rpg's was even thought of..nor is it because WoW said so. It's because it makes sense. If you are a master of something you have devoted your whole life to be a master of that one thing. If you spend half your time lifting weights or work in a quarry as you put it you are not a master of anything.

I can write a book about a wizard who uses machineguns and shoot spells out of his dong and then make a game about it.. that way people can use it as a reference when wizards are brought up and how they are only able to throw spells from their hands. No this game and my book does it different so it makes sense!. id rather go with what the majority has written about and made games about.

let me copy past from the sorceress description

The Sorceress
A rebellious woman who has wrested the secrets of magic use from the male dominated Mage-Clans of the East, the Sorceress is an expert in mystical creation ex nihilo. Though somewhat lacking in the skills of hand-to-hand combat, she compensates for this weakness with fierce combative magic for both offense and defense

They added something that makes sense in the description based on thousands of literature and games but didn't implement it in the game. It was made to cater to people like you. That's not necessary a bad thing since it became hugely popular with kids and adults alike. But it would be nice to actually have something that makes sense within the genre. The only thing you and i will accomplish is using the same arguements for our cause over and over again without agreeing to anything. i wasn't going to reply but i hate being misquoted or quoted for things i never said or even hinted at.

[Orphan]

I hate to bring it up, but it is described in D&D and it makes good sense: a mage needs to wave his arms and fingers about in delicate ways which heavy armor would interfere with.

As mentioned above, the Diablo universe is nothing like the DnD universe. Sure, casting a spell in DnD may require intricate gestures and waving of the hands, but that doesn't mean every single spell in every game functions the same way. Spells in D2 don't require those additional movements and precision, thus are not limited by heavy armor. There are worlds out there where people can cast magic with a blink of the eye.

Orphan, the problem with your explanation of the elite forms of armor is this: it still amounts to a "force field" explanation for at least some of the armors. So you might say the dusk shroud is a different stronger material than steel, so it has higher def than full plate. Ok, fine, fine... The problem is the dusk shroud only covers the body and a bit of the arms. Full plate is drawn in the game showing plates that cover the arms, wrists, knees, legs, everything except head hands and feet. So the dusk shroud would have to be drawn as a 'dusk snow suit' for your explanation to apply. I guess we'll have to assume the old magical force field is giving it that extra def to make it higher def than full plate.

Think of it using this example:

One soldier is wearing an armor entirely made out of paper. It covers him from head to toe. Another soldier is wearing only a breast plate made out of solid steel. Who has more defense? I'd say the latter. I know it's abit extreme but it goes back to material quality. Just because an armor covers less doesn't mean it provides less defense, because if it can deflect/absorb more damage then it's still better than something made of weaker materials but covers the entire body.

This goes in line with the fact that weapons also get stronger the higher they get (exceptional + elite). So an elite weapon against a normal full plate mail is go to have as easy a time as a hot knife through butter. Demon's on hell are probably like "true demons", where their claws and attacks can shred through normal steel. Stronger materials are needed to absorb greater damage.

Also, if demon hide is stronger than steel, how can the demons move in the first place?

Because demons are strong and demonhide is flexible. By today standards, I guess you could think of it along the same lines as some sort of bullet proof armor.

I mean, why not debate Mithril in Tolkien's universe? It's stronger than steel and lighter to boot. That doesn't make really sense, but we accept that this is the case in that scenario and I can't really see why we can't accept that demon hide or other elite/exceptional armor materials also exist in D2.

[Funkopotamus]

If you want the armor system to make more sense, it would make sense that if you can't wear full plate armor you're too anemic to be fighting evil.

[Zerosugar]

If you want the armor system to make more sense, it would make sense that if you can't wear full plate armor you're too anemic to be fighting evil.

in the realm of sword and scorcery spellcasters has always had alternative means to protect themselvs. You speak out of pure ignorance and lack of experience in the genre

[Funkopotamus]

You speak out of pure ignorance and lack of experience in Funkopotamuses.

And so what? It's pretty obvious a lot of things in the Diablo, and many series, are incredibly simplified. Maybe they could of made 30 light armors, 30 medium, etc, or not reused art and built the two (now three) tiers of armor up from cloth and ended on some super dense vibranium/mithril alloy armor, a reference which defeats itself because those are supposed to be two light metals. But they didn't, and it's just cosmetic. And ultimately, the result is roughly the same. Unless my characters aren't the norm. My casters never have the strength to maintain a useful defense while my melee manage well enough due to weapon costs.

Though I do think it would be cool to have cumulative equipment costs. It was in Hellgate and it looks like Blizzard still has Blizzard North's notes. Also, it may pan out to unorthodox "melee caster" type builds being weaker in magic in D3 if energy has an effect on casting. It would certainly help the broken stats now.

[Brother Laz]

Cumulative costs in HGL were epic fail, because they inherited the same problems as the D2 system (gee, I just found an item that costs less than the one I've been using... looks like I now have some wasted points in str).

I agree that str, dex and enr need to have more pronounced effects for their respective characters. Putting 400 points into str should amount to something.

......

Nowhere does it say just how people cast magic in the Diablo world, and in fact some elements contradict each other, in the game and in the lore. (Even if we ignore the books, which have little to do with the Diablo way and more with D&D)

But if you accept that people can cast spells while holding a war hammer, then magic must be some sort of mind power. Also, skeleton mages are animated by 'ancient wizard spirits' and can cast magic. Except in D1 you obtained spells by reading books.

......

Anyway, let people make up their mind about this themselves, the game doesn't need to explain everything. On my end, I added some sorceress-specific armors in Median XL (kazarghand, lamellar armor, ceremonial armor, ...) with unusual ingame looks; perhaps spellcasters did come up with their own exotic armor designs that permit fluid movement and spellcasting and can also be engraved for MOAR SKILL LVLZ.

[Funkopotamus]

Cumulative costs in HGL were epic fail, because they inherited the same problems as the D2 system (gee, I just found an item that costs less than the one I've been using... looks like I now have some wasted points in str).

The kind of person who has a major problem with that would probably be remaking their character because it's now imperfect and ugly.

I agree that str, dex and enr need to have more pronounced effects for their respective characters. Putting 400 points into str should amount to something.

Seconded. Those extra points in str are a lil' sextra damage. I misspelled that but I think I'm gonna leave it.