Sexism and Patriarchy

[PFSS]

Because apparently those aren't things women select for.
Because apparently those aren't things that men select for.

So men are not naturally interested in any qualities other than physical beauty, and women are not interested in physical beauty at all?

I think I've totally lost where this conversation was going. What were we discussing?

What I was trying to point out is that the things that people select for might very well be things that we are socialised to select for, rather than things we would naturally select for.

For example - the idea that we naturally look for the female shapes that are rammed down our throats by the society is kinda bunk when you consider ideals of female beauty in the past.

Or if you look at fashions of the past and what they sought to enhance/hide in order to make a person appear more attractive.

Going on the idea that our current perceptions of what is attractive in each gender is the absolute truth and 'the way things naturally are' is kinda risky given how much those perceptions have changed in the past. It seems kinda naive to not question why female bodies are so sexualized when male bodies are not. Don't you think it odd not to question why a womans worth to society is based almost purely on her looks when she might have just as much intellect and talent as any man?

[ellie lindsey]

Glurin, whatever will I do with your charity? Giving me another chance? Wow, I'm so lucky.

Strike two. You were doing so well up to this point that I figured I'd give you a second chance, but you're blowing it fast. Its clear to me now that this isn't about my opinions at all. You've got some kind of personal issue with me. Considering you've never met me IRL, I'm finding it very difficult to fathom what that issue could be.

Gee, I wonder why I might have a personal problem with you. It might have to do with the rampant misogyny.

That's because I DON'T sleep around with everyone I meet"

Implication: Women that want abortion are sluts. Gendered insult.

Just can't stand the fact that a man could be your equal or even your superior, can you?

That attack wouldn't make much sense if you tried it on a man, would it? Gendered insult.

"You may have to deal with carrying it, but we have to deal with you."

Incredibly misogynistic attitude there. Gendered insult.

You just screwed yourself with that statement. How you managed to get pregnant like that is a complete mystery though...

Once again, this wouldn't make much sense being said to a man, would it. You also fall back on the slut argument. Gendered insults.

***For the reference of our viewers here, this was his response to me stating that it only takes one man to get a woman pregnant. It's basic biology, or so I thought. I'm guessing this misconception of his is what he learned at his abstinence-only "sex education" class.***

cold-hearted b*tch

Gendered insult.

who just didn't want to use a condom

OH SHE'S SUCH A SLUT gendered insult.

But hey, you've white-knighted for sex offenders too, so I'm pretty sure your opinions are just awful.

Actually I can easily see this leading back to the "good old days", where you'll see a bunch of guys walking around with big "S"s branded on their forehead. Just further proof that sex offenders have become the witches of modern times.

Those poor sex offenders...


As for your post in this thread:

I'm sorry, but you're overlooking one very important fact on the motherhood issue. Men don't produce milk. Women are mothers because that is the way nature intended it to be.

Nature didn't intend us to have cellphones for portable long-distance communication either, and yet here they are. History is riddled with humans transcending biology.

No, what you're after is equal numbers, not equality.

I see... Sure. Instead of taking my post and essentially saying "nuh uh" why don't you show me where my only goal is equal numbers. Be sure to include the parts where I brush off equality.

[Herald of Doom]

So men are not naturally interested in any qualities other than physical beauty, and women are not interested in physical beauty at all?

No, men are naturally more focused on physical qualities than women. That doesn't mean they both blindly go for one trait. I present fake thought up at the spot percentages:
male: 50% body 50% the rest = 100% attraction
female: 30% body 70% the rest = 100% attraction

What I was trying to point out is that the things that people select for might very well be things that we are socialised to select for, rather than things we would naturally select for.

For example - the idea that we naturally look for the female shapes that are rammed down our throats by the society is kinda bunk when you consider ideals of female beauty in the past.

Or if you look at fashions of the past and what they sought to enhance/hide in order to make a person appear more attractive.

Going on the idea that our current perceptions of what is attractive in each gender is the absolute truth and 'the way things naturally are' is kinda risky given how much those perceptions have changed in the past. It seems kinda naive to not question why female bodies are so sexualized when male bodies are not. Don't you think it odd not to question why a womans worth to society is based almost purely on her looks when she might have just as much intellect and talent as any man?

That's not exactly how it works. Physical attraction is mostly a matter of math. If your face and body are symmetrical, people WILL be attracted to you (and people from the same sex will find you more likeable). People will find women who are larger/smaller than the "ideal" attractive if their bodies are still shaped like an hourglass. The basic rules of attraction stay the same over time, but the details change. And yes, those are basic rules, they don't cover everything

And where do you get the idea womens worth is "almost purely" looks? Women are judged more on looks than men, but I'm sure you realise your statement is false

[SaroDarksbane]

Ellie:

You can't just post something someone says out of context and expect it to be taken at face value. What are you, part of mainstream media?

If you're trying to prove he's a misogynist, you're going to have to better than that.

[Stoutwood]

Why not? It makes not more sense for a man to focus on a womans legs than for a woman to focus equally on a mans legs. If you're going to argue that women are not naturally inclined to find certain parts of a mans body attractive, while men are then I think you're on some pretty shaky ground.

Why does it make any more sense for a woman to wear a push up bra than it would make for men to wear a padded shirt to enhance his pecs?

Legs to men = Arms to women. At least that's my experience. That's why guys go to the gym and only do curls, and why male clothing tends to expose or enhance the arms.

Pecs too. A lot of male shirts are tight around the chest area to enhance it.

[Tanooki]

Besides, men can get larger pecs through work. I don't think women can increase their chest size with bench presses - thus the need for padding.

[TakeMyCrabs]

Is equality something we really want anyway?

[Tanooki]

So... we're all done discussing, right? Can we just take a vote and be done with it? Or does anyone else need a turn flogging the dead horse?

(I'll bet anything someone just -has- to chime in with points already brought up...)

[BobCox2]

See my Homepage.

[TheNix]

I'm sorry, but you're overlooking one very important fact on the motherhood issue. Men don't produce milk. Women are mothers because that is the way nature intended it to be.

Here's a strike for you Glurin, men can, or rare occasions, produce milk naturally and if you give men estrogen they do produce milk. Men have everything they need latently waiting to be triggered, that's why men get breast cancer.