BvC WW fpa question

[baconmcpig]

I decided to make a bvc for this ladder and after having read quite alot about them, I'm still not entirely sure if I'm right about how dual-wielding weapons function in terms of hit checks. On Arreat Summit, it says that both weapons undergo a hit check independently or something of that sort. This brings me to my point

Everyone says to use a beastz (4fpa WW guaranteed), with a griefz. They say to go for the 34+ ias ones as they will give the 4fpa instead of 6. I understand that this leads to quicker damage over time, but I was wondering if getting a 6fpa grief can be better vs other melee's/high block/life chars, tanks essentially. Since if you do a frame by frame analysis this is what you get for hit checks with 4-4 weaps:

4 4
8 8
12 12
16 16
20 20
etc.

BUT, with a 4-6 setup your hit pattern is as such:

4 4
8 8
12
14
16
20 20
24
26
28
32 32

So when you hits are a bit staggered as such, would it not cause others to either block more often or, if hit, be in hit recovery more?

I've never played a bvc before and I have yet to get PvP-quality gear for my own guy.

[xxxkillerxxx]

Dualwielding two weapons with different bp's is a bit complicated and wasn't really resolved when I was active, not sure if they've figured it out by now.

Anyway good thinking, keep it up and you'll be a great barbplayer. Two things though;
1. Vs melee and stuff you do long whirls against you don't rely on causing hit/block recovery. Nice yes, but doesn't really matter and alot of melee is uninterruptable anyway.
2. When you want to cause hit/block-lock (vs casters) you do shorter whirls and will rarely go beyond 12 frames in my experience.

Another thing is that an opponent already in block/hit-recovery will not restart the recovery animation even if you hit him again before it finishes. AFAIK this was introduced in 1.10 to prevent block&stun-locking. Together with the 4 frame pause between whirls this makes it virtually impossible to stunlock anyone with ww so we have to kill by either getting really fast at leaping->tele/drivebywhirl, good at intercepting and/or by complementing ww with other attacks like berserk.

[TienJe]

i'm not sure if the explanation on arreat summit is wrong, but just to clarify the interpretation of what is written there, when dual wielding, both weapons alternate in being used to determine the hit check frequency.

ww starts off with free hit checks at frames 4 and 8, and then uses your primary weapon speed to figure out when the next hit check will be. if there is no target in range, it alternates between the secondary and primary weapons.

so, when you are whirling at air, the hit check pattern will look like:

4
8 8
14 14
18 18
24 24
28 28
etc.

but if you're in range for the entire time (which you should be with proper whirls), the pattern will look like:

4
8 8
12 12
16 16
20 20
etc

if you're whirling "into" a target from afar, the weapon that is used to get the first hit check when you move in-range will be used to determine the hit check frequency until you move out of range again. but i think most important thing to pull from this is that the weapons do not stagger their hit checks, so its best to keep both weapons at the 4 fpa bp.

i don't think it's fair to say that ww will never stun a character. it's just that there are so many variations in pvp that it won't happen all the time. if you look at it theoretically, 4 fpa is fast enough to stunlock most characters if it hits every time. however, there is no swirly from the barb, so there is no guarantee that each hit will do enough damage to trigger stun animation. there is also no guarantee that you will hit every 4 frames. a quick lapse in stun for 1 hit check is enough to allow the target to escape (thats a gap of 8 frames). you also need to watch out for the delay between hit checks when you re-start your next whirl, which can range from 4-7 frames. regardless, stunlock/blocklock from nice DoD's does occur, like in bvc's vs necros for example.

taking hit rate and the opponents DR/ES% into account, just use your common sense and figure out how to shape your whirls to be most effective.

[xxxkillerxxx]

i don't think it's fair to say that ww will never stun a character.

I've never managed to lock a really good player consistently. I don't count random flukes/lag etc, but 19 times of 20 they escape after first ww anyway. My whirls weren't bad either (and I used a myriad of different ww-lengths), it just doesn't happen. I mean unless you do good wws you get outtanked by druids and if they can cast nado they can tele away at will.
I guess things like action frames, pause-between-whirls and eliminated block/stunlock explain it somewhat, especially af cleared up alot for me (why I sometimes get off impossible zerks as well lol). Too bad, would've been more interesting to play barb if you could turn theory into practice and actually perform real DoDs. Bad blizz.

[TienJe]

I've never managed to lock a really good player consistently. I don't count random flukes/lag etc, but 19 times of 20 they escape after first ww anyway. My whirls weren't bad either (and I used a myriad of different ww-lengths), it just doesn't happen. I mean unless you do good wws you get outtanked by druids and if they can cast nado they can tele away at will.
I guess things like action frames, pause-between-whirls and eliminated block/stunlock explain it somewhat, especially af cleared up alot for me (why I sometimes get off impossible zerks as well lol). Too bad, would've been more interesting to play barb if you could turn theory into practice and actually perform real DoDs. Bad blizz.

iono, my friend does it pretty often, even vs my max block necro

[xxxkillerxxx]

iono, my friend does it pretty often, even vs my max block necro

Strange, normally only happened to me on blocknec if I tried to tank and let them start their 2nd or 3rd whirl before trying to tele away...

[TienJe]

Strange, normally only happened to me on blocknec if I tried to tank and let them start their 2nd or 3rd whirl before trying to tele away...

yea, it doesn't happen as much as with a ghost, but i can definitely feel me get held in place for a little bit each time he whirls. it's not an indefinite block/stunlock, but i do get locked for a few short whirls.

[baconmcpig]

Thx guys. I just crafted a beastz (256-35) today, hopefully I'll get my hands on that griefz in the next couple of days.