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  1. #11
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    This is a well written guide, but there are a few things I disagree strongly with.

    Peace is a good choice for armor, and when using peace, sojs are obviously the best choice despite the mdr bug. However, you mentioned using a 4 socket Ancient Armor with 4 PRubies. This seems like a terrible choice - maxers would be much more beneficial than PRubies. Also, an artisans armor of the squid would be a better choice than a 4os armor.

    I think the obvious helm choice would be a 3os +3maul helm socketed with maxers. The ideal helm would be +2ss/+3maul 2os, but this would be very hard to find. By the way, lycan and werebear can't spawn on such a helm as they are tier 1 skills.

    The best shield without a doubt is an ATSoD. I don't know why you say this locks you into using deaths sash. Very few LLDs have a source of cold damage, and for those that do, you'll probably be using your Grim Scythe anyway, and therefore having no shield. Besides, even when your ATSoD does lock you into using Death's, 3 sockets are much better than the stats you would lose on a belt.




  2. #12
    IncGamers Member SmittySixTen's Avatar
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    Queen Mebd: To be honest, I'm not really one to answer shopping questions. I just kind of wing it when I'm looking for something. However, Charsi seems like a good start for a Deflecting shield to me. All the stabilities I shopped were from Hell Larzuk. I actually just shopped one today, but it was only 1 socket from the quest. =/ As for the charms, I'm not sure what the best ilvl to roll is, mainly because I don't really roll charms just to get lld charms.

    crawlingdeadman: Pfff... only one kicker ever gave me a problem. :P

    inanefedaykin: The damage, defense, and life you get from SoJs will outweigh any damage lost if someone happens to have enough MDR to counter what's on them.

    Zangeif: First, I stated that I used the 4os armor when I first started off dueling again. I couldn't afford much else at the time, and it did the trick. It's not something I would stick with once I got a more suitable replacement, but it got the job done when I used it.

    As for the helm, a Bear isn't a Wolf. It's not going to get nearly as much AR from skills as a wolf will, and as such it needs more AR from items to be viable. The obvious choice is NOT a white 3os with +3 Maul, because you cannot get any AR from that. It is a perfectly viable and acceptable choice, but it is simply not the bottom line in helms. If you're not getting AR from your helm as a LLD Mauler, then you're not able to wear SoJs or a rare SS Amulet because you need to use Angelics.

    The ATSoD is the same case, it is a perfectly viable option, but I don't think it is the best option hands down. You automatically need to use one socket for a Shael, otherwise you're simply blocking too slowly. The loss in defense isn't worth it to me just for a couple of max damage jewels, which brings me to my next point.

    Damage, as I said, is the very last thing a mauler needs to focus on. I know your mindset is wolves, and yes, they do need to up their damage a lot more than bears do. However, a mauler isn't going to have anywhere near the AR as a wolf, or even a FC bear. When you use a mauler you need to make sure that character stays alive long enough to reach max maul. This means you need defense and life over outright damage. It is also why AR is so much more sought after for a Mauler than it is a Fury wolf or FC bear.

    EDIT: Just to expand on that, you need to note that throughout the guide I was saying Maul needs to be limited. It's your main source of AR, but you want it to be no higher than level 20 (and lower is better if you can). You can't lower the skill level of your AR source and not make up that AR somewhere else. It just doesn't work that way.

    I know it seems very odd, but if you focus just on damage as a mauler I can't see it turning out well. Someone may come along and prove me wrong, but I just haven't seen the "damage is king" attitude work with a mauler in 1.11.



    Last edited by SmittySixTen; 04-11-2007 at 00:01.

  3. #13
    IncGamers Member brokensvt's Avatar
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    Smitty, I hope you don't mind my filling in this blank for you. Here is where I tend to shop for certain desirable LLD melee items. When I refer to Gheed+Charsi, I mean to make games until you get the town gate between the two of them, it makes for more efficient shopping efforts. All shopping is in Hell mode, btw.

    *3os Life armors: Anya, Gheed+Charsi. All are fairly equal in giving Light Plates. Anya is nice for the occasional Mage Plate(defense+ no r/w penalty), and Gheed+Charsi the occasional Gothic(sex appeal).
    *3os FHR armors: Same as above.
    *Deflecting Tower Shield: Gheed+Charsi
    *Deflecting Gothic Shield: Anya
    *Deflecting Grim Shield: Anya. This gal will also give up the "Holy" prefix on occasion. Just the other day I snagged both a "Holy Grim Shield of Deflecting" and a "Holy Mage Plate of the Squid" from her, and both took two sockets.
    *Deflecting Bone Shield: This is nice for low requirements, and VBSoD's are still nice for a level 9 dueler, though they seem to have fallen out of vogue. This can be shopped from Drognan in A2.

    PS: As for my "credentials," many here can attest to my EPIC 18-hour shopping spree for the latest AToD, among other trips to the vendors.




  4. #14
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    I hope you're not taking offense that I disagree with a lot of your choices.

    Here's what you listed for helm choices:

    Pcrown: Even if you donít use it, you want one in your stash for the FRW. Shael it unless you have a lot of FHR charms. If you do, then I prefer a Pruby. You can use max jewels if you really want, but itís a waste on a pcrown.

    White pelt with skills you use on it: Itís not a bad choice, really. You can get your three sockets and stick it full of all sorts of jewels, gems, and runes, but itís not really what I prefer. The reason is because you need AR to cut down on skills invested in Maul, and youíre not getting AR from this.

    Blue 2SS Pelt with other skills you use: Again, itís not a bad choice, especially if you can get two sockets and nice mods. Itís just not my style.

    Rare 2SS helm with other skills you use on it: THIS is what I shoot for. Get one with some AR, Visionary is your godsend for this. 2os would be great as well, along with life. Hard to find, but I personally think it canít be beat.

    Dream Helm: 2SS, 3 Lycan, 3 Bear, and 3 Maul with the Visionary mod, life, and 2os. Oh I can dreamÖ
    But then when I suggest a 3os +3Maul helm you reply with

    As for the helm, a Bear isn't a Wolf. It's not going to get nearly as much AR from skills as a wolf will, and as such it needs more AR from items to be viable. The obvious choice is NOT a white 3os with +3 Maul, because you cannot get any AR from that.
    None of the helms you suggested give any bonus to AR either (except the dream pelt which actually can never spawn) On the other hand, a 3os +3Maul pelt not only gives a good damage boost, but it also could give quite a bit of AR. If you fill sockets with 15/60 jewels (or better if you can get them) it will help out your AR (and damage) much more than a helm like PCrown ever could.

    I'm also confident that an ATSoD is the best choice. Even if you want to Shael it to move up a frame in fbr, that's still a 2 socket advantage that it has over the Rhyme that you use. Jewels (and charms) are what make or break LLD melees and getting an extra 2 sockets is much more beneficial than getting CBF. And like I said, you can always slap on Deaths when you need CBF anyway.

    Damage, as I said, is the very last thing a mauler needs to focus on. I know your mindset is wolves, and yes, they do need to up their damage a lot more than bears do.
    I just don't understand this at all. I obviously know that there are other important aspects to melee characters other than damage, but to say that damage is ther last thing a melee character needs to focus on seems ridiculous. While I understand that you want to reach max maul, it's also very important that you do decent damage once max maul is reached.

    I also don't understand why you focus on defense at all. LLD melee's have around 7k AR at the least (my druid hits near 11k with angelics) and 2k defense will only reduce their chance to hit you slightly.




  5. #15
    IncGamers Member SmittySixTen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zangeif View Post
    I hope you're not taking offense that I disagree with a lot of your choices.
    I was unaware that re-explaining, or elaborating why I made a specific choice inherently meant I was taking offense to you. Stating that only makes it seem like you're either hypersensitive to disagreement or that you intended me to take offense.

    Here's what you listed for helm choices:

    But then when I suggest a 3os +3Maul helm you reply with
    Actually, my response was that yes, what you suggested is a viable option, but that it is wrong to assert that it's the single best option for this build. As I stated in the equipment section, I am pretty set in my opinion as to what I think is the best, but I do recognize that there are other options out there. Everyone will have their own opinion, they just need to have a rational for what they choose.

    None of the helms you suggested give any bonus to AR either (except the dream pelt which actually can never spawn) On the other hand, a 3os +3Maul pelt not only gives a good damage boost, but it also could give quite a bit of AR. If you fill sockets with 15/60 jewels (or better if you can get them) it will help out your AR (and damage) much more than a helm like PCrown ever could.
    Actually I said to try to get a rare +2SS with AR, preferably with the Visionary mod. Just for the record.

    I'm also confident that an ATSoD is the best choice. Even if you want to Shael it to move up a frame in fbr, that's still a 2 socket advantage that it has over the Rhyme that you use. Jewels (and charms) are what make or break LLD melees and getting an extra 2 sockets is much more beneficial than getting CBF. And like I said, you can always slap on Deaths when you need CBF anyway.
    What I'm basically getting at is that you have to break from the usual mindset of LLD melee chars to be successful with a Mauler. The defense is key in almost all melee duels. Also, in most games you won't know when you need CBF and when you don't. I'd prefer to have some DR, CBF, some res, and my 40 FBR on at all times in case I get jumped. Would this change if I were in a private duel game? Of course, but in pubs you just never know.

    I just don't understand this at all. I obviously know that there are other important aspects to melee characters other than damage, but to say that damage is ther last thing a melee character needs to focus on seems ridiculous. While I understand that you want to reach max maul, it's also very important that you do decent damage once max maul is reached.
    You will do decent damage, because that's innately what a bear does. If you spend your time focusing on damage then you're just building up one aspect of the character, and weakening the overall build. Like I said, I tried to do this at first, and it simply did not work. The differences in 1.09 and 1.11 are too vast for the old style of a Mauler to function, so damage has to take a back seat to survivability.

    I also don't understand why you focus on defense at all. LLD melee's have around 7k AR at the least (my druid hits near 11k with angelics) and 2k defense will only reduce their chance to hit you slightly.
    Which melees exactly? From what I remember, your druid has a level 10+ HoW, meaning that AR number isn't entirely accurate. The top lld melee characters may hit around 7k AR consistently, but in about 80% of the duels 2k defense with max block will be pretty darn hard to hit by anyone's standards.

    Let me be clear. I fully understand the concept of not focusing on max damage is weird to a lot of people, but with this build it works. I fully intended to base my maulers around max damage when I first started to LLD in 1.11. However, in the mauler's case it simply does not work. This is why you haven't seen many successful maulers. People stuck to the "damage is king" mentality, and it did not work.

    Bottom line, you are more than welcome to disagree with me. I'm simply stating what I have seen work, and what I have seen not work. You can either accept this as a viable build, or you cannot. It's really up to you.




  6. #16
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    I was unaware that re-explaining, or elaborating why I made a specific choice inherently meant I was taking offense to you. Stating that only makes it seem like you're either hypersensitive to disagreement or that you intended me to take offense.
    No, I just didn't want you to take offense like most people do when I criticize their builds. A lot of people get pretty offended by me.

    Actually I said to try to get a rare +2SS with AR, preferably with the Visionary mod. Just for the record.
    The only time you mentioned a visionary helm was when you mentioned the "dream helm" which actually can't ever spawn. All of your other helm options had nothing to do with AR.

    Also, in most games you won't know when you need CBF and when you don't. I'd prefer to have some DR, CBF, some res, and my 40 FBR on at all times in case I get jumped. Would this change if I were in a private duel game? Of course, but in pubs you just never know.
    In pub normal games if you get jumped, it's by a low level who isn't built for LLD. They won't pose a threat regardless of whether you have 15% DR or CBF.

    in about 80% of the duels 2k defense with max block will be pretty darn hard to hit by anyone's standards.
    Not at all. 75% block obviously means that you will block much more often than you will be hit. However, the 2k defense has a very miniscule difference in your chance to be hit. Defense smiters have 35k defense. Good conc barbs have around 18k. 2k defense does not make any noticeable difference.

    Let me be clear. I fully understand the concept of not focusing on max damage is weird to a lot of people, but with this build it works.
    You say it "works" but you also admitted that this build will lose to most dedicated LLDers. It seems like the truth is that the build doesn't actually work, but you're proud of making a unique LLDer. Honestly, I know how the mechanics of maul work, and I know it can't be a competitive LLDer regardless of how you build your character. However, I'm sure that my gear suggestions are more efficient than a Rhyme PCrown build socketed with PRubies.




  7. #17
    IncGamers Member SmittySixTen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zangeif View Post
    No, I just didn't want you to take offense like most people do when I criticize their builds. A lot of people get pretty offended by me.
    If people tend to take offense by you it's probably because of how you present yourself, and not the mere fact you are criticizing a build.

    The only time you mentioned a visionary helm was when you mentioned the "dream helm" which actually can't ever spawn. All of your other helm options had nothing to do with AR.
    Quote Originally Posted by SmittySixTen View Post
    Rare 2SS helm with other skills you use on it: THIS is what I shoot for. Get one with some AR, Visionary is your godsend for this. 2os would be great as well, along with life. Hard to find, but I personally think it canít be beat.
    That was in my original post.

    In pub normal games if you get jumped, it's by a low level who isn't built for LLD. They won't pose a threat regardless of whether you have 15% DR or CBF.
    Are level restrictions on? If not then I completely disagree. However, it'd be pointless to go there anyway, because both of us could come up with random hypothetical situations that favor our own opinion.

    Not at all. 75% block obviously means that you will block much more often than you will be hit. However, the 2k defense has a very miniscule difference in your chance to be hit. Defense smiters have 35k defense. Good conc barbs have around 18k. 2k defense does not make any noticeable difference.
    What does my opponents defense have to do with their ability to hit me?

    You say it "works" but you also admitted that this build will lose to most dedicated LLDers. It seems like the truth is that the build doesn't actually work, but you're proud of making a unique LLDer. Honestly, I know how the mechanics of maul work, and I know it can't be a competitive LLDer regardless of how you build your character. However, I'm sure that my gear suggestions are more efficient than a Rhyme PCrown build socketed with PRubies.
    Ranged characters will give this build a problem, yes, but I hardly see how that information would set you off on this little rant of yours. There are a lot of characters that will give this build a run for its money in stiff competition, but that's why there is no one purely dominate melee build from what I've seen. Anyway, I don't know where your comment about this build not working came from. There are a good number of people on these forums that have seen both of my maulers, and they can tell you if it works or not.

    Also, you seem to have a fixation on my choice of helms, while still not actually re-reading that section to see what I was actually suggesting. Do I need to quote myself again? As for the shield, I don't think the ATSoD is the better option. I've stated why, and you've stated why you disagree. Ultimately it's up to whoever decides they want to use the guide if they agree with you or if they agree with me.

    I think you need to start considering how you present your opinions, Zangeif. From what you've said in this thread I can tell you the reason most people take offense to you has a lot to do with how you criticize builds, not the mere fact that you do.




  8. #18
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    If people tend to take offense by you it's probably because of how you present yourself, and not the mere fact you are criticizing a build.
    I think it's because people are too sensitive, and when they post mediocre guides they get raged when I point out all the defiencies of the build. I've never sugar coated anything that I post. My advice is top of the line, but if you're offended by the language I word it in, then feel free to ignore it.

    Anyway, you're right that I missed the part where you mentioned that a +2 SS/visionary/AR/2os circlet is the best choice for a mauler. Well, considering that all 4 of those are mods prefixes, it can't exist either.

    Are level restrictions on? If not then I completely disagree. However, it'd be pointless to go there anyway, because both of us could come up with random hypothetical situations that favor our own opinion.
    Agreed. I just assumed that such a comprehensive guide wouldnt be geared towards dueling a level 74 tals sorc in a pub game.

    What does my opponents defense have to do with their ability to hit me?
    Nothing. I thought it was clear what I was trying to accomplish by posting the defense of LLD smiters and conc barbs. By comparing 35k defense to your 2k defense, it demonstrates how low 2k is compared to these other high def builds. Even a good level 9 smiter hits 2k defense. I can't find the link to the chance to hit calculator, but my guess is the difference between hitting 500 and 2k defense (vs. 7k AR) is less than 5%.

    Ranged characters will give this build a problem, yes, but I hardly see how that information would set you off on this little rant of yours.
    Every equally geared melee character will completely demolish you as well.

    There are a good number of people on these forums that have seen both of my maulers, and they can tell you if it works or not.
    Well, you already admitted that your mauler loses to ranged characters. Now I'll compare your stats to my LLD fury druid. I'll even post the stats of your FULLY CHARGED maul vs. my regular fury attack.

    Werebear fully charged Max Damage: "Full charged /w HoW: 1037"
    My Fury druid: 2223

    Werebear Fully charged AR: "AR with HoW: 4740"
    My Fury Druid: 7241

    Werebear life: "Life: 1776"
    My Fury Druid: 2723

    Your FPA: "Faster Attack Speed Ė 5 Frame Attack"
    My Fury Druid: 4 Frame attack (6/4)

    Your FBR: "Faster Block Rate - 40FBR (7 Frames)"
    My Fury Druid: 6 Frame

    Your FHR: "Faster Hit Recovery Ė 54 FHR (7 Frames)"
    My Fury Druid: 4 Frame

    So, you've admitted that you can't beat ranged characters. By the stats I've posted it's clear that you can't come close to beating a top notch melee either. Maybe you should consider my advice.




  9. #19
    IncGamers Member SmittySixTen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zangeif View Post
    I think it's because people are too sensitive, and when they post mediocre guides they get raged when I point out all the defiencies of the build. I've never sugar coated anything that I post. My advice is top of the line, but if you're offended by the language I word it in, then feel free to ignore it.
    I never said your advice was invalid. However, I do think your ego makes people much less apt to listen to you. The fact that you know it's the wording you use that offends people shows you really have no real intent to actually offer advice, but would rather just try and invalidate other people's builds.

    Anyway, you're right that I missed the part where you mentioned that a +2 SS/visionary/AR/2os circlet is the best choice for a mauler. Well, considering that all 4 of those are mods prefixes, it can't exist either.
    Never said to try and get both Visionary and AR on it. Though, it seems like the helm topic is a lost cause with you at this point.

    Agreed. I just assumed that such a comprehensive guide wouldnt be geared towards dueling a level 74 tals sorc in a pub game.
    And I wouldn't have thought you would limit yourself to private games when you have an entire realm of people to duel with your wolf.

    Nothing. I thought it was clear what I was trying to accomplish by posting the defense of LLD smiters and conc barbs. By comparing 35k defense to your 2k defense, it demonstrates how low 2k is compared to these other high def builds. Even a good level 9 smiter hits 2k defense. I can't find the link to the chance to hit calculator, but my guess is the difference between hitting 500 and 2k defense (vs. 7k AR) is less than 5%.
    Chance to Hit

    100 * AR / (AR + DR) * 2 * alvl / (alvl + dlvl)

    If I did my math right, there's a 93% chance to hit if it is two level 30's, the attacker has 7k AR, and the defender has 500 defense. This drops to 77% if the defense is increased to 2k.

    Every equally geared melee character will completely demolish you as well.
    EDIT: Never mind, don't even want to hear it.

    Well, you already admitted that your mauler loses to ranged characters. Now I'll compare your stats to my LLD fury druid. I'll even post the stats of your FULLY CHARGED maul vs. my regular fury attack.
    Ah, so that's what all this is really about.

    I'm not going to bother comparing stats. You're talking apples and oranges in every manner. I'll go out on a limb and say you spent a vastly larger amount of time and wealth building your druid than I did. I could be wrong, because I don't know how long it took you to build it or how much you actually put into it, but I'm pretty sure I'm right. Due to that, the two are incomparable.


    That said, I'm going to take your "top notch" advice and add you to my ignore list now. I wasn't going to until I got to that last little bit, but I've treated you with complete respect, and if you're not going to do the same then I really have no desire to read what you have to say. It's pretty sad that you're the only person I've ever had to do that with on here, and you probably won't even take the hint...




  10. #20
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    Ah, so that's what all this is really about.
    No, that's not what it's really about. I'm not using this thread to brag about my Fury druid. I'm just using him as an example that your mauler can't beat good melee characters. You already admitted that you can't beat good ranged characters.

    So... what can you beat?




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