20 points always necessary?

[Bobiam]

I've been browsing over threads around the forums here to hopefully help improve my game, and I've noticed things like 'LF/FA' Amazons, which I'm assuming is Lightning Fury/Fire Arrow, yes? Well, I crunched the numbers on a build like that, and it seems... restrictive. LF has four synergies to it, and FA has one by itself, and running the numbers, you can't max them or their synergies in the 110 skill points allotted. So... are 20 in your choice skills always necessary, or is it possible to survive builds without having everything maxed? When I make potential builds with a skill planner, I find myself hard pressed to accept anything that doesn't have a number of skills maxed. Is this a good approach?

I find myself, almost every build I do, pointing out flaws in the build and I get a little discouraged and kinda stop messing with it. Is it because I try too hard to max my skills? I find when I try to give myself diversity, the build seems too frail and I give up. I don't really tunnel-focus many builds on just a few skills and aim to max them, admittedly, which I'm making efforts to try and do, but I have difficulty accepting lack of diversity. I feel if I spread myself too thin, the build suffers, but if I focus too hard, the build suffers because they can basically only do three or four things. Which is right, are both wrong, or am I right on track?

I want to try and get myself to enjoy D2 more than I do - which, don't get me wrong, is a lot - but I find myself looking at the build and getting a little discouraged. Am I just looking too hard and not playing to enjoy enough? Thanks for any feedback!

[Malachi]

For the LF/FA build:

http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=464188

It is excellent !

It will answer the reason behind using the synergies for this build specifically, and honestly I was amazed at its effectiveness.

[Bobiam]

For the LF/FA build:

http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=464188

It is excellent !

I'm not really looking into a LF/FA build, I was just commenting on the concept of the build with the restrictive 110 points allotted, and wondeirng how the build would function well with such limitations, and if that can apply to other classes and/or builds. Truth be told, I prefer Druids, Pallies, Barbs and Assassins.

[Nightfish]

It's simple math... Base skill times bonus equals damage. Let's say your synergies add 5% damage per point. So you end up with:

0 Points: 100% Damage
20 Points: 200% Damage
40 Points: 300% Damage
60 Points: 400% Damage

Seems linear, but kinda isn't. Think about it like this: From 0 to 20 you double your damage. that's an increase of 100%. From 20 to 40 you increase your damage by 50%. From 40 to 60 you increase it by 33%. See where I'm heading? The more you have in your synergies, the less they do.

Oh, and one more thing. If the percentage added by synergies is 1% as it is for lightning fury it doesn't really make a noticable difference if you have it or not. That's one reason why 20 LF alone is a killer. The other reason is that this particular skill is kinda overpowered.

What is definetly necessary is maxing the skill you want to use. Those 20 points I would not forego. But syenergywise you are fine with 20 points in most cases.

Needless to say that this applies to caster skills, weapon damage dependant skills follow different rules.

[Malachi]

That build will give you a hint. You see it is not always needed (nor possible) to max ALL synergies for a skill. But choosing which ones to use wisely is the key. That is not a flaw, that is preventing overpowered builds in a way, or builds limited to only using one element.

Sometimes I end up spending less than max on a synergy e.g. an avenger (max conviction, max vengence and some, not all, in the elemental resist synergies). Be aware that some synergies have a 'hidden' bonus too (e.g. fade, the resist skills on a paladin).

[Arreat_mercenary]

I think I do get your point Bobiam: you are planning way too much and playing too little.

Fortunately, in the world of D2, although numbers play a big part and can help (not determine) if a build is viable or not, they are not, by any means, the entire truth. For example, if an amazon which didn't used any item at all (and I mean, no armor, no weapon, no shield, etc.) would try to reach guardian status, would you think it is possible? Numbers would tell that it was almost impossible, but yet, someone tried, knowing numbers can lie, and that someone made a naked guardian amazon: a char which finished hell without ever using anything, the name of the player is Insane Wayne.

Part of the fun of the D2 is that you can do whatever you want, if you want a char which can kill anything you can do it, or if you want a char which especializes in certain areas, you can also try. BUT, to have the best of the best, you have to have char which especialize in a duty (PvM, PvP, doing MF,etc.) and the only way to find those chars is through playing.

[Bobiam]

Hmmmm.

I read over the build guide anyway, and the damage usually hovers around 1k, huh? I usually make efforts to go beyond 1k if I can, but I guess that's from lack of playing experience, especially in Hell.

Thanks for all the information, I think it helped me more than a bit. Either that or I'm applying 2.5k damage from my Fury Werewolf onto caster-like builds and aiming for damage that high, which probably is a no-no. Likely a little of both.

Thanks again. I'm currently running an old build I forgot about, a Fissure/Dire Wolf Druid with Oak Sage that uses a bow and a Rogue Merc. It's actualy proven surprisingly effective, even on /players 8, though the bosses go a little slow, but that's to be expected with Summons in the build. I guess the high damage from melee-heavy builds is needed not only to kill stuff, but for leech as well.

Also, how do you usually spend your points? Is it wiser to more or less focus on one skill until it's maxed, or take turns between skills, or what? Or does it matter? I wonder if that's another way I hurt my builds while playing.

[azn_apocalypse]

Also, how do you usually spend your points? Is it wiser to more or less focus on one skill until it's maxed, or take turns between skills, or what? Or does it matter? I wonder if that's another way I hurt my builds while playing.

Skill point allocation really depends on the particular build, but in SC, a good rule of thumb is to max your primary damage-dealer as soon as possible, then worry about synergies later. (And by max, I don't necessarily mean putting 20 pts in, just get it to the level that it would be at when the build is finished) If you play HC, then survival takes priority over damage and you should "max" your primary survival skill first, whether it is a tank, BO, etc.

The exception would be where the synergies are better than points in the actual skill. This happens with Bone Armor and also with certain damage-dealing skills once the actual skill gets to a high enough level (Fire Claws iirc).

As stated above, 20 pts is not always necessary, even in your primary killing skill. Example: Corpse Explosion/Death Sentry. Skill points only increase radius and I find that around 10 hard points with +skills gives plenty of coverage. Another example: Blade Fury. Usually one point is all you need on a Furysin. It depends on the skill.

[Drixx]

@Bobiam - As for spending points, that's where understanding the numbers comes into play. I'll use as my example the standard meteorb build.

Once you've maxed meteor, then what? You have fire mastery, fire bolt and fire ball to max as well to synergize it... but in what order? After a while, it actually gives less of a bonus to meteor to up fire mastery another point, than it does to up fire ball... so a lot of times, you need to assess what your primary killing skills are and then place points which will raise them the most.

[Bobiam]

Probably the most glaring obstacle comes down to, for me anyway, which is more important between offense and defense? In a Druid summons build, you can choose either between buffing your Dire Wolf skill, or your Oak Sage skill to keep them alive? Or maybe you need more damage from your Bear? Or, in my current build, I choose between Wolves and Fissure. I'm going to make efforst to get Fissure up first I think, because even on /players 8 my Dire Wolves can tank just about anything, likely thanks to Oak Sage.

Other things come to mind as well, such as between Feral Rage or Werewolf, both before you get Fury and after you have it maxed. Is the attack speed more important than the leech? Or maybe more life from Lycanthropy? In a pure single-tree Sorc, it's not so hard because you synergize until you get Meteor, or Frost Orb, or Chain, or whatever, then just buff it. It's when you're more diverse that things get ugly, like dual-tree builds or multi-purpose builds - an Assassin with Martial Arts and Shadow Disciplines for instance, where you choose between overall masteries or the skills.

I play with a friend about 90% of the time, and she's told me a couple times that I probably overanalyze way too much and give up at the slightest little hitch instead of pushing through. She item runs more than I do, so she has more gear to twink with than I do, so I'm not sure if it's easier for her to keep going because she has gear to pimp herself with, or if it is just me giving up too easy. I guess in the end it'd even out, no matter which you raise first, but the grind to get there can suffer because of unwise skill selections.