windforce vs faith

[SkyMind]

Wind force is a joke now, i wouldnt even subject a merc to Wind Force, true it does 35- 500+, but theres a good chance youll be hiting a lot of under 150s - 200s

Witch wild has the Highest Minimum damage of any bow (Upgraded Base) giving it a stable damage output and a masive % chance to critical hit, not to mention amp. and it has slots for Ohms.

To truly measure a bow to Faith WF isnt the one to do it, your better off Comparing
Riphook

(58.8 - 77.7) - (114.8 - 151.7) base: 21 to 41 (31 Avg) (calculated with 180-270%)
180-220% Enhanced Damage (varies) 230-270% with ohm
Slows Target By 30%
30% Chance of Open Wounds
30% Increased Attack Speed
7-10% Life Stolen Per Hit (varies)
+35 To Mana

Or:
Witch Wild
(82.5 - 121.1) - (100 -148) base: 33 to 40 (36.5 Avg) calculated with 150-270%
+150-170% Enhanced Damage (250-270 w/ 2 Ohms) (varies)
Fires Magic Arrows [Level 20] (does 20% magic damage 80% phisical damage when useing reular attack, also adding 20% damage)
2% Chance To Cast Level 5 Amplify Damage On Striking
+ (1 Per Character Level) 1-99 % Deadly Strike (Based On Character Level)
All Resistances +40
Sockets (2)

Should be noted that the deadly strike on the bow does stack with gore riders, but not with critical strike skill, so if it doesnt crit, your critical strike will be calculated as a chance to crit, but if your Lv 85+ with gores, your going to crit every time.

and for random (x)bows
Pus Spiter: (req 47 str, 42 dex)
(62.5-80)-(217.5-256) Base 25 to 87 (56 Avg) w/o Ohm (probly wana shael)
+150-220% Enhanced Damage (varies)
+150 Poison Damage Over 8 Seconds
Requirements -60%
9% Chance To Cast Level 6 Poison Nova When Struck
4% Chance To Cast Level 1 Lower Resist On Striking
+ (5 Per Character Level) 5-495 To Attack Rating (Based On Character Level)
10% Increased Attack Speed
+2 To Necromancer Skill Levels
(Only Spawns In Patch 1.09 or later)


From the Desk of:
The-3-Sticks

woah, you witchy fans are going crazy. You say Windforce is a joke, then you start talking about how good witchy is?!

How about this, your knowledge of bowzons is a joke. Wf with faith merc>>>>>> Witchy with anything. period.

[ale beer two]

Windforce. sheer damage output is amazing. period.

[AnimeCraze]

Don't forget WF has 40 IAS as well (if you shael it). You can then put on Atma's Amulet for some mayhem. You can't do this with a Faith GMB, and a WF > Faith mat in damage. Though if you have things like 160/60 and 120/45, that probably doesn't matter.

The upside of faith is that you don't need a pride merc (if you are too poor for one), and you have an extra tank (or more, from skeletons), where as WF you need a faith merc to multi (you can strafe, but that's a bit slow), and you don't have an extra tank.

The damage isn't the most important thing. It's how you play the both of them, whether the extra tanks are useful, and whether you mind your merc dying every Chaos run.

[dainbramage]

woah, you witchy fans are going crazy. You say Windforce is a joke, then you start talking about how good witchy is?!

How about this, your knowledge of bowzons is a joke. Wf with faith merc>>>>>> Witchy with anything. period.

I just ran some numbers on max GA damage at level 95. I could squeeze 5.6k average post-crit damage out of a WWS, and 7.4k for a WF. Both at an 8-frame GA/multi etc, and 2 frame strafe. The main difference between the setups is that (irritatingly) you can only get +1 min damage per charm slot, compared to +4 max, which really reduces the effectiveness of a min damage build (which is what I was using on the WWS).

A WWS can hit surprisingly high levels of damage with a proper build, as well as saving a boatload of points otherwise invested into crit strike, giving some nice resistances, and having an amp proc which, while it can't be counted on in PvP, will go off regularly on a PvM strafer.


If you want a verdict;

PvP - WF for your one-stop shop of one-hit kills. Being able to smack someone for 18k damage (yes, that IS possible... glass cannon with a perfect damage roll and a crit, but hey) is just... rewarding. WF is a brute of a bow. A faith mat in the right hands can be pretty impressive, but WF... has smack power.
PvM - WWS, both for power with strafe, and the style points of having a blue bow. Where WF is brute, dirty, grizzly strength, this bow has elegance and subtlety. It will dish out a lot more damage than you'd expect from it, especially with the amp proc.

[Hector]

If you want a verdict;

PvP - WF for your one-stop shop of one-hit kills. Being able to smack someone for 18k damage (yes, that IS possible... glass cannon with a perfect damage roll and a crit, but hey) is just... rewarding. WF is a brute of a bow. A faith mat in the right hands can be pretty impressive, but WF... has smack power.
PvM - WWS, both for power with strafe, and the style points of having a blue bow. Where WF is brute, dirty, grizzly strength, this bow has elegance and subtlety. It will dish out a lot more damage than you'd expect from it, especially with the amp proc.

Sorry but I got to strongly disagree on both based on my bowazon experience.

PvP, there is not much room for another bow other than a Faith GMB/MB. Shooting at 7 FPA is a must and is a great advantage over shooting at 8 FPA; sure skilled WF zons might do well in PvP but Faith should give an edge in most shoot-and-run situations due to the higher speed.

PvM, the WWS will pale in comparison to WF zon + Faith Merc or Faith Zon + Might/Pride merc. There's just no way the damage on a WWS can keep up, and things get worse/difference gets wider the more off weapon damage you have because the advantage of a high damage bow (WF/Faith) will be multiplied far too many times, especially with a high level Concentration aura from a Hammerdin around (not uncommon). WF zon + Faith Merc will usually outdamage any other combinations in this situation, and she can still use Atma's to throw in Amp Damage while shooting at 7 FPA and using Fort...

[dainbramage]

Sorry but I got to strongly disagree on both based on my bowazon experience.

PvP, there is not much room for another bow other than a Faith GMB/MB. Shooting at 7 FPA is a must and is a great advantage over shooting at 8 FPA; sure skilled WF zons might do well in PvP but Faith should give an edge in most shoot-and-run situations due to the higher speed.

PvM, the WWS will pale in comparison to WF zon + Faith Merc or Faith Zon + Might/Pride merc. There's just no way the damage on a WWS can keep up, and things get worse/difference gets wider the more off weapon damage you have because the advantage of a high damage bow (WF/Faith) will be multiplied far too many times, especially with a high level Concentration aura from a Hammerdin around (not uncommon). WF zon + Faith Merc will usually outdamage any other combinations in this situation, and she can still use Atma's to throw in Amp Damage while shooting at 7 FPA and using Fort...

While the extra frame is nice for shooting-and-running (DPS is higher with WF, so that wins when you're not doing so), with adequate fr/w (as in 180+ before harmony), good timing, and correct use of strafe (and it will act as a deterrent anyway), you can outpace whoever is chasing you while still getting shots off. And if/when the shots land, they'll be hitting harder than if you were plinking with a faith.

As for pvm - For starters, the most merc dependent I like to be is insight. If I *need* a merc to get me from a 9-10 frame attack to a 7 framer, I'd delete and rebuild. I also play legit, which means no faiths or prides flying around. Your statement on off-wep ed is plain false. A WWS build isn't like a WF build. Take advantage of what a diamond bow can do. In other words, stack minimum damage. The numbers I had for my GA calculations before, I had a base damage of 271-272, and a 96% chance to deal double damage (95% DS from WWS, and ~30% crit) using WWS. The WF had something like 78-586 with a 70% chance to deal double. Do the maths, these numbers (incl cs/ds) are virtually equal. Add in amp, and the WWS deals double damage, far more than the WF. Take off cats eye for the WF zon, and you lose your 8 framer. Add in off-wep ed, and the damage figures become closer (similar base damage, but the WF had more off-wep ED) by proportion (i.e. 1k vs 2k as opposed to 9k vs 10k). As above, you're weighing up extra damage vs amp and 40% res all.

[AnimeCraze]

As for pvm - For starters, the most merc dependent I like to be is insight. If I *need* a merc to get me from a 9-10 frame attack to a 7 framer, I'd delete and rebuild. I also play legit, which means no faiths or prides flying around. Your statement on off-wep ed is plain false. A WWS build isn't like a WF build. Take advantage of what a diamond bow can do. In other words, stack minimum damage. The numbers I had for my GA calculations before, I had a base damage of 271-272, and a 96% chance to deal double damage (95% DS from WWS, and ~30% crit) using WWS. The WF had something like 78-586 with a 70% chance to deal double. Do the maths, these numbers (incl cs/ds) are virtually equal. Add in amp, and the WWS deals double damage, far more than the WF. Take off cats eye for the WF zon, and you lose your 8 framer. Add in off-wep ed, and the damage figures become closer (similar base damage, but the WF had more off-wep ED) by proportion (i.e. 1k vs 2k as opposed to 9k vs 10k). As above, you're weighing up extra damage vs amp and 40% res all.

How can you get a base damage of 271~272? An upped WWS has like ~100 damage, and to stack it that much, you need hax charms. Second, if you can somehow get charms to increase your average damage by that much for the WWS, you can do the same for the WF. By that logic, I should add 150 to the WF's min and max damage. And the math would be different. If you are attempting to factor amp in for that damage, that is just plain wrong, since amp only triggers once every 50 arrows in average, and more importantly, you have to strafe for amp to get an effective trigger rate. I had a WWS zon before, and switched WF on her when I finally got one, and stick on an extra bit of IAS. She kills 2x as fast.

I still fails to see why you would want to use +min charms, given that +max charms can go up to +10 easily, and +13 (or 14?) is possible. You can't find a +7 min charm (which is how much you need on a +min charm to compete the effectiveness of +13~14). Heck, you get AR to book for max/AR charms.

Doesn't just about all builds need faith for 7 frame? I needed like 90 IAS just to get 9/2 with WWS anyways, and needed like 120 for WF. So even for strafe, I will still stick with my WF (assuming no faith).

Read this:
http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=145812
and this:
http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=293297
Faith is not on the first one because I think this is done in season 1. I think this sums it up pretty nicely for WF vs WWS.

I did the math before, and both my math and experience does not support what you claimed. How about if you post your gear if you are to use WWS and if you are to use WF, and we do a comparison?

[SlainByPain]

WF and Faith are both effective in PvP. Which is more effective is based on preference, but most use faith. Remember that faith diamond/shadow/ward bows are can also be good.

[MinionOfBoredom]

To those arguing that WWS can kill as fast as Faith:

Try a Faith Matri with Atma's Scarab.

Amp triggers twice as often, albeit without as much range, but you hit the 7/2 BP as well. It kills better than a GMB Faith, and I'm pretty sure a WF (although I've never tested with one before.)

Just a little thing to think about.

[dainbramage]

How can you get a base damage of 271~272? An upped WWS has like ~100 damage, and to stack it that much, you need hax charms. Second, if you can somehow get charms to increase your average damage by that much for the WWS, you can do the same for the WF. By that logic, I should add 150 to the WF's min and max damage. And the math would be different. If you are attempting to factor amp in for that damage, that is just plain wrong, since amp only triggers once every 50 arrows in average, and more importantly, you have to strafe for amp to get an effective trigger rate. I had a WWS zon before, and switched WF on her when I finally got one, and stick on an extra bit of IAS. She kills 2x as fast.

I still fails to see why you would want to use +min charms, given that +max charms can go up to +10 easily, and +13 (or 14?) is possible. You can't find a +7 min charm (which is how much you need on a +min charm to compete the effectiveness of +13~14). Heck, you get AR to book for max/AR charms.

I did the math before, and both my math and experience does not support what you claimed. How about if you post your gear if you are to use WWS and if you are to use WF, and we do a comparison?

(snipped quite a bit)

I used min charms on the WWS because I was stacking minimum damage. While it's true for charms that max charms have more than double the max than min charms, it's not true for jewels (24 max compared to 18 min). As far as gear goes, I used full min damage jewels with the WWS, IAS where necessary, min damage charms. WF used ed/ias jewels, max damage charms. Damage figures were both the highest I could get them. Adding an extra 150 min damage to the WF would require two helm slots, two armour slots, an extra 37 charm slots, an extra ring slot, and two extra sockets in the weapon. They were full damage setups for BOTH.

Re strafe: My strafer uses a WWS. 8/2 strafe, 100% pierce, ~9k ar. She shoots ~9 arrows per second, with 100% pierce against packs. Every monster in the pack (if it's grouped tightly) is hit pretty damn close to every 6 frames. If there are 8 monsters with a 100% CtH (I have 95%), 50 hits are racked up in ~35 frames. What's that... 1.4 seconds? Which means, it takes 1.4 seconds of strafing, on average, to proc amp. My experience with a strafer backs that up.

As for a faith mat bow w/ atma's... having never found a Jah, and not being willing/able to cube 64 guls, I haven't tried it. It would probably be stronger than a WWS (I actually recall seeing charts with pvm strafe damage which listed a faith w/ atma's as the highest... can't find it looking for it though).

For the record, a 7/2 strafe doesn't exist (8/2 is the fastest). I don't know if there's any testing of that on this site though.