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  1. #31
    IncGamers Member emar's Avatar
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    Relax - people apparently don't handle critisms well...

    I'll post it nicely and concisely.

    In your next draft come up with GM strategies to fight elemental characters as opposed to the idea of completely negating them. You can win without mass 'sorb if you know what you are doing - for necro players that don't play that way, it would be useful to include something to that effect in a guide.

    I'm with CaptnSparrow on the full 'sorb = no technique bandwagon - but we already discussed this before anyway...




  2. #32
    Banned soul killer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emar View Post
    Relax - people apparently don't handle critisms well...

    I'll post it nicely and concisely.

    In your next draft come up with GM strategies to fight elemental characters as opposed to the idea of completely negating them. You can win without mass 'sorb if you know what you are doing - for necro players that don't play that way, it would be useful to include something to that effect in a guide.

    I'm with CaptnSparrow on the full 'sorb = no technique bandwagon - but we already discussed this before anyway...

    Yup, agree with you.
    Ill duel more elemental chars and see what I come up with.
    But for some chars, you just cant win without a lil sorb and max res gear.




  3. #33
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    Teeth "Trick"- Just a useful strategy that works best against ghost sins and bvcs.
    Carefully spam Spirits in the enemies direction, teleing where needed (tele, spam, tele).
    When theres a big trail of spirits after the sin/barb, get close to them spam Teeth.
    This should stop the opponent because of the FHR, meaning all of those Spirits will hit them at once.
    All of this should be done within 4-6secs.
    To get them into FHR requires 1/12th of their life as your damage. Now, (1/12) * 6400 = 533. That's PvP damage. Before the penalty, that means 6400/12/0.17 = 3137.2549 damage. That, in turn, requires a fully synergized lvl 110 Teeth unless more than 1 hit. Even if 2 hit, it's still lvl 62 Teeth. Heck, if 3 hit, then that's a lvl 45 teeth, which can be achieved. So, you will need 3 teeths to hit, which is not going to be exactly "spamming Teeth", you will actually have to hit them with 3 teeths.

    Also, you do realize that you can have WAY less than 180 base dexterity easily? 40 from rings, 40 from circlet and amulet, that's already base 100. Now add Shadowdancers or some other boots with dexterity and you can get to around 75-95ish. That's almost 100 statpoints less.




  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ce Olba View Post
    To get them into FHR requires 1/12th of their life as your damage. Now, (1/12) * 6400 = 533. That's PvP damage. Before the penalty, that means 6400/12/0.17 = 3137.2549 damage. That, in turn, requires a fully synergized lvl 110 Teeth unless more than 1 hit. Even if 2 hit, it's still lvl 62 Teeth. Heck, if 3 hit, then that's a lvl 45 teeth, which can be achieved. So, you will need 3 teeths to hit, which is not going to be exactly "spamming Teeth", you will actually have to hit them with 3 teeths.

    Also, you do realize that you can have WAY less than 180 base dexterity easily? 40 from rings, 40 from circlet and amulet, that's already base 100. Now add Shadowdancers or some other boots with dexterity and you can get to around 75-95ish. That's almost 100 statpoints less.
    I knew this day would come.
    Ever guide writer dreads Ce Olba :P

    Ill take everything you said into consideration.

    Thx for the input.




  5. #35
    IncGamers Member Xombie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ce Olba View Post
    To get them into FHR requires 1/12th of their life as your damage. Now, (1/12) * 6400 = 533. That's PvP damage. Before the penalty, that means 6400/12/0.17 = 3137.2549 damage. That, in turn, requires a fully synergized lvl 110 Teeth unless more than 1 hit. Even if 2 hit, it's still lvl 62 Teeth. Heck, if 3 hit, then that's a lvl 45 teeth, which can be achieved. So, you will need 3 teeths to hit, which is not going to be exactly "spamming Teeth", you will actually have to hit them with 3 teeths.

    Also, you do realize that you can have WAY less than 180 base dexterity easily? 40 from rings, 40 from circlet and amulet, that's already base 100. Now add Shadowdancers or some other boots with dexterity and you can get to around 75-95ish. That's almost 100 statpoints less.
    If you spam teeth though, chances are more than 3 will hit =]. Spirit will always put them into FHR as well.

    I've made so many max block necs in the past...+life items > + dex items.

    Max block necs get all their life from +life which is why I only reccommend it if you can afford PnB Lifers. The life from +vit is pretty low. +Life is BO'able as well.




  6. #36
    IncGamers Member mythos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ce Olba View Post
    To get them into FHR requires 1/12th of their life as your damage. Now, (1/12) * 6400 = 533. That's PvP damage. Before the penalty, that means 6400/12/0.17 = 3137.2549 damage. That, in turn, requires a fully synergized lvl 110 Teeth unless more than 1 hit. Even if 2 hit, it's still lvl 62 Teeth. Heck, if 3 hit, then that's a lvl 45 teeth, which can be achieved. So, you will need 3 teeths to hit, which is not going to be exactly "spamming Teeth", you will actually have to hit them with 3 teeths.

    Also, you do realize that you can have WAY less than 180 base dexterity easily? 40 from rings, 40 from circlet and amulet, that's already base 100. Now add Shadowdancers or some other boots with dexterity and you can get to around 75-95ish. That's almost 100 statpoints less.
    IIRC teeth will only hit with 1 tooth per cast. Ie each cast may fire 20 teeth, but only 1 will score damage.
    Teeth is a nice finisher beacuse its very hard to avoid and easy to aim. It can also be used to interrupt casting, at which point any trailing spirits may catch up.

    On the dex thingy. Its a balance, going for all dex on your items will mean you probably can't play base str. Of course, if you can find/afford 2 fcr rings and a ammy with str AND dex, then some mana/life/res as well, then you can probably get away with less stat points.
    One of the best helms for this build is a 3/20/2soc. So no stats there. And the only problem with dancers (I used to use them, but now go for treks) is their str req of 167.
    I guess the point I'm trying to make is that bone nec's rely on a lot of rares (ie rings, helm, ammy). Thus, the mods on these items will vary. And the state of the D2 economy means that any good rares are hidoeusly expensive (at least on West). So for the average player 180 pts to stats is not unreasonable.

    Lastly, 15 dex is the max that can spawn on rare rings. So 40 from rings is not going to happen, unless you're advocating the use of rings from a previous patch.




  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by mythos View Post
    IIRC teeth will only hit with 1 tooth per cast. Ie each cast may fire 20 teeth, but only 1 will score damage.
    Teeth is a nice finisher beacuse its very hard to avoid and easy to aim. It can also be used to interrupt casting, at which point any trailing spirits may catch up.
    I said you will need 3 teeths. I mean 3 at the very same moment, which is impossible unless you teleport closer to the BvC in a progressive manner which will, in turn, get you killed.

    On the dex thingy. Its a balance, going for all dex on your items will mean you probably can't play base str. Of course, if you can find/afford 2 fcr rings and a ammy with str AND dex, then some mana/life/res as well, then you can probably get away with less stat points.
    One of the best helms for this build is a 3/20/2soc. So no stats there. And the only problem with dancers (I used to use them, but now go for treks) is their str req of 167.
    I guess the point I'm trying to make is that bone nec's rely on a lot of rares (ie rings, helm, ammy). Thus, the mods on these items will vary. And the state of the D2 economy means that any good rares are hidoeusly expensive (at least on West). So for the average player 180 pts to stats is not unreasonable.
    Well, of course the amount of +life is greater than any amount of +dexterity you can gain, specially with only 2 life per point in vitality.

    As for the strength with Shadowfancers, 167 - 67 - 40 - 25 = 35. So it would require 35 pts into STR. However, you can lower that with an amulet that with two rings that have lots of +str. Heck, you can eve get that into zero with such rings.

    As for the 3/20/2, I hear that a lot, but I just have to say that I would take a rare 2/20/2 anyday over a 3/20/2. The damage increase gotten by wearing a 3/20/2 is too insignificant and definately not worth all the possible mods on a rare:
    +30 str
    +20 dex
    +60 life
    +2 skills
    +20% FCR
    +2 Sockets

    That right there adds a total of +160 life, all boable, thus turning it into about 300ish more life. You say that's worth the minimum increase of around couple hundred non-PvP damage which turns out to be less than a hundred PvP damage?

    Lastly, 15 dex is the max that can spawn on rare rings. So 40 from rings is not going to happen, unless you're advocating the use of rings from a previous patch.
    Oh, I wasn't paying attention. Even so, that doesn't change it too much, rare rings are still godly:

    +10% FCR
    +20 strenght
    +15 Dexterity
    +90 mana
    +60 life
    +11 all resistances

    That's the best possible and still spawnable ring in 1.11b. It adds a total of +130 life to your necro along with 90 mana. Now, 167 - 40 - 40 - 30 - 67 = -10, so you can use Dancers with base strength. So, 235 - 30 - 20 - 40 - 25 = 120, 40 stats saved, another +80 life. So, in totals you would've just gained 80 + 120 + 60 = 260 boable life. Turns out to be around +500 life. Can you say it's not worth it?

    Of course, the rarity of such items is extremely as all the mods are desired and they just happen to be perfect.

    Also, you could easily substitute Dancers for Marrows, you would only lose 7 stats, which can be re-gained via a jewel in the circlet.

    Just remember that a Pruby can add more life than a Jah. Also, a Pruby is equal to an addition of +9 vitality, which in turn is equal with +9 dexterity or strength.




  8. #38
    IncGamers Member mythos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ce Olba View Post
    I said you will need 3 teeths. I mean 3 at the very same moment, which is impossible unless you teleport closer to the BvC in a progressive manner which will, in turn, get you killed.
    I fully agree. Teeth will not put any barb into fhr.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ce Olba View Post
    Well, of course the amount of +life is greater than any amount of +dexterity you can gain, specially with only 2 life per point in vitality.

    As for the strength with Shadowfancers, 167 - 67 - 40 - 25 = 35. So it would require 35 pts into STR. However, you can lower that with an amulet that with two rings that have lots of +str. Heck, you can eve get that into zero with such rings.
    This gets back to the quality of your gear. Not everyone has dual modded rings/ammy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ce Olba View Post
    As for the 3/20/2, I hear that a lot, but I just have to say that I would take a rare 2/20/2 anyday over a 3/20/2. The damage increase gotten by wearing a 3/20/2 is too insignificant and definately not worth all the possible mods on a rare:
    +30 str
    +20 dex
    +60 life
    +2 skills
    +20% FCR
    +2 Sockets

    That right there adds a total of +160 life, all boable, thus turning it into about 300ish more life. You say that's worth the minimum increase of around couple hundred non-PvP damage which turns out to be less than a hundred PvP damage?
    Again, correct. Now tell me where I can get a circlet like that! Just because the arreat summit says it can spawn, doesn't mean it ever has.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ce Olba View Post
    Oh, I wasn't paying attention. Even so, that doesn't change it too much, rare rings are still godly:

    +10% FCR
    +20 strenght
    +15 Dexterity
    +90 mana
    +60 life
    +11 all resistances

    That's the best possible and still spawnable ring in 1.11b. It adds a total of +130 life to your necro along with 90 mana. Now, 167 - 40 - 40 - 30 - 67 = -10, so you can use Dancers with base strength. So, 235 - 30 - 20 - 40 - 25 = 120, 40 stats saved, another +80 life. So, in totals you would've just gained 80 + 120 + 60 = 260 boable life. Turns out to be around +500 life. Can you say it's not worth it?

    Of course, the rarity of such items is extremely as all the mods are desired and they just happen to be perfect.
    As per circlet comments. Only I'd prefer high lite res.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ce Olba View Post
    Also, you could easily substitute Dancers for Marrows, you would only lose 7 stats, which can be re-gained via a jewel in the circlet.

    Just remember that a Pruby can add more life than a Jah. Also, a Pruby is equal to an addition of +9 vitality, which in turn is equal with +9 dexterity or strength.
    Now you've bought yourself undone. Completely focussing on getting max life is a mistake. If you wear marrows and/or jewel the circlet, where is your fhr coming from? The dex on shadows is nice, but the 30 fhr is what they are really about. Or 20fhr from treks for that matter. Also, any max blocker will be shael shael'ing their 2 soc helm. Spirit users have it easier in the fhr dep't. But then without block, they become more vulnerable to bvc, bower.




  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by mythos View Post
    This gets back to the quality of your gear. Not everyone has dual modded rings/ammy.
    Well, even a +60 life on a ring is equal to 30 stats which can be spread to str and dexterity in whichever way you see best.

    Again, correct. Now tell me where I can get a circlet like that! Just because the arreat summit says it can spawn, doesn't mean it ever has.

    As per circlet comments. Only I'd prefer high lite res.
    Well, I said so, didn't I? However, again, even +60 life on a ring is equal to 30 stats in either strenght or dexterity, so with two rings that have, for example, 10 fcr 60 life and 90 mana, you will gain +30 dexterity and +30 str or +60 to one of them for example.

    The Lightning resistance on rares is bit limited. Well, the maximum you can get is +40%.

    Now you've bought yourself undone. Completely focussing on getting max life is a mistake. If you wear marrows and/or jewel the circlet, where is your fhr coming from? The dex on shadows is nice, but the 30 fhr is what they are really about. Or 20fhr from treks for that matter. Also, any max blocker will be shael shael'ing their 2 soc helm. Spirit users have it easier in the fhr dep't. But then without block, they become more vulnerable to bvc, bower.
    Well, of course. However, you can easily achieve 125% FCR without any FCR from gloves, which brings in Bloodfists, adding +40 life and 30% FHR. Now you have 50 or 60% FHR and +40 life so that you can replace a pruby in your circlet with a Shael. Now you have 70 or 80% FHR. Now you can add a 7/15 fhr/all resistances jewel for example. Now you have 77% or 87%. Add a 12% FHR skiller and you have 87%. A skiller is a must at this situation unless you had a 7% FHR jewel in your circlet because by replacing 2 scs with fhr ones, you lose 40 life and having over 40 life in skillers is unlikely.

    So, it's not exactly that hard to have high life, 86% FHR, 125% FCR and max block.




  10. #40
    IncGamers Member mythos's Avatar
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    I should have pointed this out last time too. 40 life is max possible on rare rings.




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