BvC

[HappyAssassin]

Okay. This needs to be brought up, and it needs its own thread, because it keeps coming up in other threads, and I wouldn't mind a resolution to it. I've noticed a lot of things on this forum since I've been here, and one of them is that it has a serious chubb for the BvC class. I have trouble finding a thread w/o a reference to their superiority, godliness, etc. Now, there are good BvCs. There are BvCs who beat just about everyone they face. But, I'm really, really tired of hearing how great the class is. The fact is, there are players of other classes who beat everyone they face. When people discuss the power or lack thereof of classes (and subclasses) on this forum, they tend to discuss them in terms of having decent gear, and decent players. For some reason, in the case of the BvCs, the player is assumed to be godly. I'm not sure why this is, but the emergence of threads like :" do you ww barbs ever got beaten," clearly shows that it is having an impact on the people who come here for advice.

So, I'm looking for some answers. In my experience, the best players are very good at their chosen build, and it is more their skill and less their build that lets them win. Why are BvCs portrayed as so godly? Even their proponents admit that they require great ability to be good. I'll take it a step further. Most BvCs are terrible. I can only assume that a portion of these are people who have searched the web for a good pvp guide and come across things like that horrendously inflated win % table for BvCs. Whenever this is mentioned, the response is "Well, those aren't REAL BvCs," but apparently there are only around 5 so called "real" BvCs per realm. How elite do you have to make the players before a class becomes good? How absurb would it be if we compared all classes on the basis of only the very best players? It has no relevence to any average gamer who comes here looking for information. I've seen build ideas shot down on this forum because it was said that a BvC would beat it, and a BvC has to be part of any imaginary pub. What are the odds that McM is going to be in any given pub? Why should ANYONE plan their character on the basis of that? Furthermore, since in the context of planning for Pubs the average BvC is a weak opponent, why do we consider only the godly BvCs "real?"

Imagine if we applied this attitude to all characters. Think of how many discussions have been derailed by someone (generally Ce Olba, but others as well) popping in and saying "A BvC would win in that situation because of "x". What's the point? What does it contribute? Imagine if all the skilled WWsin players on the forum did that. Then add in the skilled smiters. And the skilled Hammerdins. And Wolf Druids. And Elemental druids. Etc...etc...etc...

What if instead of constantly advocating this one class as so superior, we just treat them like any other class?

[pedu]

I agree. Cant think of anything else to say. :laugh:

So ill just shut up now...

[emar]

I honestly couldn't have said that better myself. Kudos to you on the very comprehensive and accurate post.

I completely agree with the attitude that 'BvC owns all here' and it kind of does deter me from reading or posting in this sub-forum. I will admit there are probably some very solid BvC players, but in your average Pub game - most BvC builds do not dominate. Lack of skill, or use, or charms or whatever excuse you give them, they aren't the best.

While the build does have some great aspects (a good BO, Leap, WW. among other really strong skills) other classes do have some great aspects as well.

You are right with this:

the best players are very good at their chosen build, and it is more their skill and less their build that lets them win

While there are many BvC supporters here, I think we should all realize that it IS the skill of the player and less so the build that makes for a win. Not always, but most of the time.

Kudos!

[Arbedark]

Wooo, spoken like the true Assassin Fanatic you are

I myself think this is 100% true, accurate whatever you want to call it. This BvC pimping needs to be toned down to a reasonable level.

However this is unlikely to happen.

[Ce Olba]

Okay. This needs to be brought up, and it needs its own thread, because it keeps coming up in other threads, and I wouldn't mind a resolution to it. I've noticed a lot of things on this forum since I've been here, and one of them is that it has a serious chubb for the BvC class. I have trouble finding a thread w/o a reference to their superiority, godliness, etc. Now, there are good BvCs. There are BvCs who beat just about everyone they face. But, I'm really, really tired of hearing how great the class is. The fact is, there are players of other classes who beat everyone they face. When people discuss the power or lack thereof of classes (and subclasses) on this forum, they tend to discuss them in terms of having decent gear, and decent players. For some reason, in the case of the BvCs, the player is assumed to be godly. I'm not sure why this is, but the emergence of threads like :" do you ww barbs ever got beaten," clearly shows that it is having an impact on the people who come here for advice.

If you understand my talking as if I suspect all BvCs to be godly, you're wrong. I clearly say that most players of barbarians have no idea of how they're played, which gives them a bad image, thus making people think that BvCs suck, so we have to bring up the good players to shut up the ones who think that based on their experience vs. random BvCs they can judge the whole class.

Why are BvCs portrayed as so godly? Even their proponents admit that they require great ability to be good. I'll take it a step further. Most BvCs are terrible.

BvCs are portrayed as godly only when weak people say that they own all BvCs when they really haven't faced the better BvCs. And yes, most barbarians in PvP are horrible.

Whenever this is mentioned, the response is "Well, those aren't REAL BvCs," but apparently there are only around 5 so called "real" BvCs per realm. How elite do you have to make the players before a class becomes good?

That's because BvCs are one of the classes which have only a bunch of good duelers whereas rest sucks. With smiters, for example, there are godly people, good people, crappy people, decent people, etc. This does not exist for BvCs.

How absurb would it be if we compared all classes on the basis of only the very best players? It has no relevence to any average gamer who comes here looking for information.

It depends from the information the gamer is looking for. If s/he is looking for a build, I will be one of the first to give it to them. If s/he is saying that BvCs suck based on his experience with pubs, I will be there with facts.

I've seen build ideas shot down on this forum because it was said that a BvC would beat it, and a BvC has to be part of any imaginary pub. What are the odds that McM is going to be in any given pub? Why should ANYONE plan their character on the basis of that? Furthermore, since in the context of planning for Pubs the average BvC is a weak opponent, why do we consider only the godly BvCs "real?"

Actually, mcm plays in a lot of pubgames. Whereas Luis only dueled in teams in private games versus good/godly people. And yes, BvCs have to be a part of an imaginary pub just as a Hammerdin, a Sorc and a Smiter too.

Imagine if we applied this attitude to all characters. Think of how many discussions have been derailed by someone (generally Ce Olba, but others as well) popping in and saying "A BvC would win in that situation because of "x". What's the point? What does it contribute?

Well, I just like things the way they are. Of course there are random factors such as lag, plain old luck, midjudgment, wrong gear, bad timing, bad prediction etc. Most of the time I compare characters with equal skill, knowledge and gear.

Imagine if all the skilled WWsin players on the forum did that. Then add in the skilled smiters. And the skilled Hammerdins. And Wolf Druids. And Elemental druids. Etc...etc...etc...

There are only a few characters that can do that constantly, mainly hammerdin, WWsin, Fury/Rabies druid, BvC, Bonemancer.

What if instead of constantly advocating this one class as so superior, we just treat them like any other class?

So you're saying that in guides people should say "If you're equal with the other player in skill and gear, it will be a tie no matter what. However if you suck, you lose. If you are godly, you win"? That would make no sense. If a class has clear advantages (WWsin vs. Novamancer or Fohadin vs. Windy), there's no need to even talk about the lesser skill people, as the outcome will mostly not change.

And no, I do not say that BvCs beat everything. It's clear that they are equal with the best hammerdins and the best boners and they lose to the best BvBs. With the rest, it's debatable.

[Arbedark]

That's because BvCs are one of the classes which have only a bunch of good duelers whereas rest sucks. With smiters, for example, there are godly people, good people, crappy people, decent people, etc. This does not exist for BvCs.

This is utter bull.

I've met BvCs who vary in skill from crap to mediocre to good and beyond...Don't make out like either you are a complete retard with a BvC or you are a God...Since it's just not true.

[Ce Olba]

This is utter bull.

I've met BvCs who vary in skill from crap to mediocre to good and beyond...Don't make out like either you are a complete retard with a BvC or you are a God...Since it's just not true.

Well, I've only seen bad ones, good ones and godly ones. Bad ones has the crappy ones, the extra bad ones, everything that's below good. Good is people who have the talent and patience to end up being good, such as some people do. These people just lack the gear and some skill to be godly. The godly ones are such as mcm, blobs, luis, morotsjos, aka the widely-known names and people who have extremely good skill, knowledge and gear.

[Arbedark]

You said a bunch good, the rest suck. This implys that there are 2 camps.

Nothing which is based upon the skill of 2 opponents is ever black and white. Of course there are varying skill levels, just like in other classes. Just because you decide to play a BvC and you stick with it and you get good doesnt mean you are a god. And just because you play with a BvC for a short while and are ok doesnt mean you suck, its all shades of grey.

As is evidenced by this thread, just about everyone is sick of the "BvC this, BvC that" that is going on around here.

Everyone talks about how godly the top BvC players are, yet is it not true that they go "50/50" with the top Bone Necro's, Hammerdins etc?

Lets start pimping these as the best builds, since the Top Necro's etc can easily wipe the floor with any mediocre and pull the sort of win ratios that are pronounced, memorized and flaunted by BvC candidates as the BvC Bible...

[Dennis_KoreanGuy]

I do understand how people are tired of all the bvc talk, but I think its also healthy to have a forum so intently focused on a specific build that is popular as well as strong.

Ce Olba is a smart bvc player and have every right to share his knowledge on a build he is best or atleast good at. You want to get rid of all the bvc talk in forum? Then keep posting your thoughts and views on another build in threads. Just like what he does.

[Arbedark]

I do understand how people are tired of all the bvc talk, but I think its also healthy to have a forum so intently focused on a specific build that is popular as well as strong.

Ce Olba is a smart bvc player and have every right to share his knowledge on a build he is best or atleast good at. You want to get rid of all the bvc talk in forum? Then keep posting your thoughts and views on another build in threads. Just like what he does.

Ce Olba hasn't played his BvC for nearly 6 months according to certain sources...after 6 DAYS of not playing sins I can barely namelock properly for a good couple of hours...

Its not healthy to have an obsession with a single build for a whole forum. For the Barb Forum, sure. Follow the Druid Forum's recent obsession with Kiba or whatever.

This is meant to be a forum for DISCUSSION about the different builds. Not "wont work, BvC >>> that"

Ok then I'm gonna say that Hybrid Sins do everything a BvC can do, and do 80% of it better...got a caster that needs killing? Hybrid sin will do it easier. Got a BvB which needs killing? Hybrid sin should be able to do that easy, ZOMG NO! The fabled BvB, the "only" build that has even a remote chance to win vs a BvC, PWNT! by a simple Hybrid sin...

Ergo, Hybrid sins pwn...