Immigration Bill in Senate today ?

[KillerAim]

SaroDarksbane:

As for the minimum wage thing, well, I haven't decided one way or the other as to whether or not we should have one. I do, however, know it is wrong to publicly say one thing while privately do another, so either minimum wage shouldn't exist, or everyone should have access to it. No in-betweens.

It’s a no brainer, if you’ve studied 1st year Economic theory. A minimum wage is nothing more than a Price Floor and an effective Price Floor always leads to surpluses (just like an effective Price Ceiling always leads to shortages.) In this case, the surplus is people wanting jobs that don’t exist.

So the results of Minimum Wage Laws are invariably increases in unemployment with the added bonus of the protection of high paid workers’ jobs at the expense of low paid workers. If you ever wanted the quintessential example of a Government program whose consequences are exactly the opposite of the intent of the program, then a Minimum Wage Law is it.

…so either minimum wage shouldn't exist, or everyone should have access to it. No in-betweens.

You do realize that current Minimum Wage laws do not cover quite a number of groups. Newly hired youths, handicapped workers, the elderly, commission sales people, workers earning tips, etc., often are exempted from Minimum Wage jobs.

[Bowsen]

It’s a no brainer, if you’ve studied 1st year Economic theory. A minimum wage is nothing more than a Price Floor and an effective Price Floor always leads to surpluses (just like an effective Price Ceiling always leads to shortages.) In this case, the surplus is people wanting jobs that don’t exist.

So the results of Minimum Wage Laws are invariably increases in unemployment.

You do realize that current Minimum Wage laws do not cover quite a number of groups. Newly hired youths, handicapped workers, the elderly, commission sales people, workers earning tips, etc., often are exempted from Minimum Wage jobs.

If the minimum wage is more than what the 'natural' wage for a job would be then the chances are that supply and demand are pretty unbalanced leaving the balance of power entirely with the employer as they can just employ somoene else and the employee is better off with "not enough money" than "no money at all". This is particulary true in the US where the minimum wage is so low (~$5-6 IIRC).

At the other end of the scale some professions/trades are very well paid because demand outstrips supply - plumbing and medicine for examples of trades and professions. Although a Doctor provides a very valueable service a large part of their good earnings are down to heavy demand for their services - demand which is kept high by the nature of the training required and because there are far fewer places on medicine courses than there are suitable candidates.

Unions act to create demand to put the balance of power on the employee side, which has positives and negatives. When unions are responsible (rare i know) they are a beneficial force, when they start taking the piss they make a company non-viable and result in everyone losing their jobs (Londons Docklands for example). A more current example of Unions taking the piss is Heathrow Airport - where all staff were hired on rates well above industry standards, and given very very good welfare facilities, and still the unions are striking.

I think that for a large part a (reasonable) minimum wage does not increase unemployment - the UK has a minimum wage of ~$9/hour (along with 22 days paid holiday) (including disabled people and so on) and has an unemployment rate of 4-5%, which is pretty good and fairly comprable with the US unemployment rate.

[Machina]

My buddy storm would like to post something on this account:

I personally can't stand illegals. My family came here when I was 4, legally. We had to tough it out iwth both of my parents getting their PhD's while my mom worked part time in a Chinese restaurant. If we have to go through the trouble of getting a visa and registering (not that hard) then why shouldn't they? I have nothing against immigrants, as I am one myself (proud owner of a 4th year green card).

Has Storm E-Mailed an Admin and asked nicely if he could be re-instated? If it's a minor offence, the Admins may kindly allow the person to come back, I think it happened on ETF once (Solartje).

[Ranger14]

There are different levels of minimum wage for different scenarios, but there still is a minimum wage law that is part of the status quo. If you are an immigrant who is wants to be a cocktail server, it probably isn't going to happen unless you have fake papers or the business owner is wanting to take that big of a risk. The bottom line is that illegals aren't working for businesses that follow the minimum wage laws, whether it be for kids, commissioned sales people, restaurant industry, etc. The one minimum wage exception I am not familiar with is for the elderly. Can't seem to find anything on that one either. As far as I was last aware, elderly fall under the normal minimum wage law unless they are working in one of the exceptions where they are earning commission or tips. That would be pushing the age issue too far if there were a seperate wage for the elderly.

[KillerAim]

Bowsen:

If the minimum wage is more than what the 'natural' wage for a job would be then the chances are that supply and demand are pretty unbalanced leaving the balance of power entirely with the employer as they can just employ somoene else and the employee is better off with "not enough money" than "no money at all".

That is yet another unhappy result of Minimum Wage Laws. In a Free Market, the price (in this case, the wage) is the determining factor in the hiring of a worker. If the employer gets more qualified people responding to a job opening than he can use, he will eventually lower the offered wage until he gets just enough people. If a Minimum Wage Law locks the wage, he will have to use some other factor to determine which of the potential workers he will hire. Too often, this non-market criterion will reflect the personal prejudices of the hirer. Thus, Minimum Wage laws contribute to racism, sexism, and other discriminatory actions.

Allowing the Market to decide the price punishes any employer who makes hiring decisions based on anything other then amount that the prospective employee will contribute to the bottom line. You want to hire only WASPs? Fine. You’ll pay a premium for labor cost while your competitors will be able to hire your rejected qualified minorities at a bargain price. Eventually, you’ll be out of business.

Case in point. Within a few years of Branch Rickey hiring Jackie Robinson to play baseball, almost all of the other professional teams had hired black players. Many of these other owners were known racists, and their hiring of black players was not an indication that they had rid themselves of their prejudices. The Market gave them no other choice. Use black players or lose money.

Ranger1:

There are different levels of minimum wage for different scenarios, but there still is a minimum wage law that is part of the status quo.

True, the usual default is the Federal Minimum Wage.

The one minimum wage exception I am not familiar with is for the elderly. Can't seem to find anything on that one either. As far as I was last aware, elderly fall under the normal minimum wage law unless they are working in one of the exceptions where they are earning commission or tips. That would be pushing the age issue too far if there were a seperate wage for the elderly.

Some states qualify certain qualified elderly people in the same class with the handicapped. For example, New York exempts from its Minimum Wage Laws, “workers in or for religious, educational or charitable institutions if the individual's earning capacity is impaired by age or by physical or mental deficiency or injury”.

[SaroDarksbane]

The topic has gotten away from immigration, but I'm enjoying the discussion nonetheless. =)

[Dondrei]

I don't see how free market economists have a problem with the unions, they're meeting demand with supply aren't they? Workers want better wages and conditions, unions provide this service for a price... in fact why don't the unions list themselves on the stock market? That'd be brilliant.

Of course, I know why I have a problem with the unions... but then, I'm somewhat sceptical about free market economics.

Has Storm E-Mailed an Admin and asked nicely if he could be re-instated? If it's a minor offence, the Admins may kindly allow the person to come back, I think it happened on ETF once (Solartje).

I was wondering the same thing. Come back, Stormy! We miss your amusing emo-ness and attention whoring...

[GrimAngelNamu]

He tried but didn't get a reply and he tried PMing Elly using my account.

[Bowsen]

Bowsen:

In a Free Market, the price (in this case, the wage) is the determining factor in the hiring of a worker.

I take it then that in support of a free market you feel that boarders should be open to all imigrants willing and able to work to peddle their trade? Restricting immigration is artifically restricting the supply of the workforce available to the employer.
(I DO NOT believe this is a good idea, but when 'Free Market' comes into play you gotta work with a market that is truely free)

Anyway - The Independent today in the UK featured a storey on immigration on the front page which had the following statistics. (as always statistics can be bent and twisted, but some i thought were interesting)

There are between 310,000 and 570,000 illegal immigrants in the UK
If allowed to live here legally they would pay £1billion in tax each year.
Deporting them would cost ~£4.7Billion.
Therefore Net-Benefit of Amnesty = ~£6Billion
50% of foreign born immigrants leave Britain within 5 years
Migrants fill 90% of the Low=Paid jobs in London
Migrants account for 29% of Londons Workforce
Legal Migrants account for 8.7% of the total population but pay 10.2% of all taxes
Each immigrant pays an average of £7203 in tax compared with £6861 for non-immigrants.

I bolded the one above as I though it interesting that (legal) migants contribute more to the running of the country than the Locals.

The figues above would seem to give more weight to Saro's 4-Point Plan on immigration as being generally a pretty good idea.

[HobbesAC]

whatever immigration policy the US will have it will still be alot better than those of the European countries -.-